New Type98/99 MBT thread

pendragon

Junior Member
Yes, true ... but as the enemy tanks ares searching for movement, shapes, I.R. signature, radio transmissions, magnetic and acoustic signatures etc. they might once more become vulnerable to simple man operated/aimed weapons; in as more as the search would be done by automated systems (view vulnerability to relatively simple/cheap IED in iraq)!
Nothing as dangerous as a determined oponent defending his home, family or way of life!
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Yes, true ... but as the enemy tanks ares searching for movement, shapes, I.R. signature, radio transmissions, magnetic and acoustic signatures etc. they might once more become vulnerable to simple man operated/aimed weapons; in as more as the search would be done by automated systems (view vulnerability to relatively simple/cheap IED in iraq)!
Nothing as dangerous as a determined oponent defending his home, family or way of life!

A modern tank's FLIR can see a man from several km away :D
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
A modern tank's FLIR can see a man from several km away :D

Not if he has dug an old fashion trench/fox hole to wait in. Just a human head sticking out of the ground could very easily be missed or mistaken for a small animal, especially in an ambush scenario where the tank crews would not realize that there are hostiles nearby and would only be performing at most quick scans, if they decided to switch on their thermal sights at all.

If modern tech has all the godly powers their makers tries to portray them as having, Israel would never have suffered anything close to the losses it did fighting Hezballa.

Having the latest and greatest kit will no doubt be a massive tactical advantage, but it doesn't make you invulnerable by any stretch of the imagination.
 

pendragon

Junior Member
yes indeed,
a simple foxhole,
som heat dissipating cover,
if he's a regular even some IR shielding clothing ...

don't just believe what is noted by the producer, or your instructor (he just read the producers brochure) or even the top brass (which are paid by the producers). Check-out different sources, evaluate and make up your truth
 

IronsightSniper

Junior Member
Not if he has dug an old fashion trench/fox hole to wait in. Just a human head sticking out of the ground could very easily be missed or mistaken for a small animal, especially in an ambush scenario where the tank crews would not realize that there are hostiles nearby and would only be performing at most quick scans, if they decided to switch on their thermal sights at all.

If modern tech has all the godly powers their makers tries to portray them as having, Israel would never have suffered anything close to the losses it did fighting Hezballa.

Having the latest and greatest kit will no doubt be a massive tactical advantage, but it doesn't make you invulnerable by any stretch of the imagination.

A man cannot have only his head up to the sky at all times in a trench or a fox hole. From different angles, different parts of his body will be visible and radiate it's heat. Not to mention that standing up the whole time is probably not going to happen and the soldiers are probably going to be laying down or sitting down. Either way, trenches or foxholes would get bombed and arty'd out of the earth so that's a null point.

And Israel suffers casualties on the premise of deception of Hezbollah. There's a picture or two of a dump truck in Gaza where it looks like a dump truck, but it has 122 mm tubes below the dumper-thing, so that when it raises the dumper-thing to dump it's payload, it's rocket tubes reveal and allows it to fire rockets. Very discreet they are, and the only real way to counter such a thing is quarantine apparently! Just more examples of simple deception that can't be reprimanded without the harsh treatment that Israel imposes on the Palestinians.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
A man cannot have only his head up to the sky at all times in a trench or a fox hole. From different angles, different parts of his body will be visible and radiate it's heat. Not to mention that standing up the whole time is probably not going to happen and the soldiers are probably going to be laying down or sitting down.

So are you trying to argue that foxholes and trenches are going to be too shallow or too deep? Seems like you are cherry picking the problems from both, but how can a foxhole be at the same time too shallow and too deep all at the same time?

If the foxhole is too short, you dig deeper, or just lay in it prone.

If it's too deep, use a periscope like they did in WWI, that also handily eliminates all thermal heat from scanners.

Standing up not possible at all time? Please let me know which military unit does not make sure there are sentries on duty at all time when they are deployed into combat? True no one person can keep watch all the time, but why would he? Even a single missile team has two members, take turns.

Either way, trenches or foxholes would get bombed and arty'd out of the earth so that's a null point.

Oh please, we are not talking about WWI era front-long trenches. Good luck finding a few two men teams scattered on the battlefield to call arty and air strikes on.

And with modern innovations like thermal shrouds and decoys, even if you had total control of the air and had UAVs as top cover, you are going to struggle to find tiny targets like that.

And Israel suffers casualties on the premise of deception of Hezbollah.

Hate to break it to you, but the premise of deception is what all sides strive for in war.

It's not some sport of honor duel ffs. Like the Israelis gave Iraq or Syria fair warning that they were going to bomb them beforehand.

There's a picture or two of a dump truck in Gaza where it looks like a dump truck, but it has 122 mm tubes below the dumper-thing, so that when it raises the dumper-thing to dump it's payload, it's rocket tubes reveal and allows it to fire rockets.

How does dump trucks come into it when we are talking about ATGM teams v MBTs in a near peer country v country context? You think your tank commanders are not going to find it mildly puzzling if a fleet of dump trucks suddenly appeared on the battlefield? :p

If anything, your 'example' illustrates my original point that good old fashioned innovative tactics can easily bypass modern sensors.

Very discreet they are, and the only real way to counter such a thing is quarantine apparently! Just more examples of simple deception that can't be reprimanded without the harsh treatment that Israel imposes on the Palestinians.

And now we are getting political. Shall we steer clear of that can of warms before we get hot heads defending and bashing Israeli treatment of the Palestinians?
 

escobar

Brigadier
:confused:

Rg2vv.jpg
 
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