New Speacial forces pictures

isthvan

Tailgunner
VIP Professional
A little more on topic, how many SOF Troops does the PLA have? Anyone know? I'll check the main site.

IIRC PLA should have one regiment for each military region. Thats some 7000 SF troops.
If we count in possible marine, navy and air force SF units number of dedicated SF personnel shouldn't surpass 20 000 men...

There is also additional ~ 30 000 men in various reconnaissance units but they shouldn't be considered as SF personnel...

this might be a bit off topic but which gun version is newer type 79 or 89 smg??? because whenever i look at it, the type 79 have both round and block version where you can put addons and type 89 is like a plain metal stamped smg??
and does the SOF carry only type-79 and not the 89 version??

By type89 I assume you mean type85... AFAIK type85 was designed to provide cheaper and more easily manufactured replacement for type79 SMG. I still haven't find any picture of modified type79 outside police SWAT units so one reason why type79 was modified could be large quantity of them in police units thus making it cheaper to install add ons on them then buying new SMGs...
 
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sumdud

Senior Member
VIP Professional
I don't think the Type 79s and 85s are used because of the mentality, but because they were mass produced before and it isn't cheap to replace them all.

Type 85 is improved for sound and has 5.8mm versions.
It is very light. I once asked Dongfeng why is MP5 better than the 79/85 (Citing better range and weight) and he showed me an article(long time ago) in Chinese stating the design/quality of the gun, how it is so cheap/bad, the bolt is capable of crapping the gun and then flying out for your eye!
 

petty officer1

Junior Member
chinese tibet special forces documetary in chinese. I can only understand 30% what they are saying

first part show a mocked night raid, second part show the shotting training, and other training.
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I really like the part , when they are carring the ammo bow, they scream "loyalty to the motherland" :rofl: :china:
(warning, chinese site might be slow.)
 
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hongkongpride

New Member
Re: New Special forces pictures

Nice video,

However, it looks very, very staged and would be an extremely stupid thing to do in real life-screaming while running around. My presumption is that they're not really SF guys. In fact, the PRC might not have many 'true' Special Forces personnel because the defintion of SF is very broad, made even more confusing by the natural secrecy of the PLA. Special forces are "highly trained members of a military force that engage in unconventional warfare and covert operations in a clandestine manner". The Beijing SWAT team and the new Snow Wolf SWAT team are not considered SFs as they do not engage in unconventional warfare. Within the PLA however, while there are approx. 7000 men in all the major Military regions that are called SFs, most of them are probably light infantry and reconnaisance troops that engage in COIN missions while only about 20-40 men that perfrom missions that would be roughly comparable to 'true' SF units such as the US Navy SEALS or UK SAS.

Why?-The answer is simple. The PLA is still a one party state that relies very much on the PLA and the now spun off PAP to protect it. The Communists hold a firm grip on the PLA by instituting a parallel rank structure similar to the old USSR by having a political commisar of equivalent rank to the Commanding Officer (CO) of every unit, who has 'political power' to 'maintain the loyalty of the soldiers to the motherland' etc. etc.

This parallel rank structure does not bode well for SF operations especially because two commanders in command cause division and lead to arguments, misunderstanding-fatal on SOF missions. My guess is that the CCp within the PLA has sidestepped this problem by employing an overall total of around 280 SOF that are fanatically devoted to the Communist cause-loyalty to the CCP first, China second-simply because these sorts of fanatics are hard to find and train up. This is in contrast to Western SOFs where all men are enlisted volunteers who have volunteered a second time for SOF duty and are highly trained, patriotic and motivated-just like their PLA counterparts. The only difference is, that the CCP does not trust SOFs enough due to the independent nature of their duties to establish a large force of SOFs like the US.

*****
Mod edit: rude comments removed, also I strongly advice you to drop the political issues as they are not what this forum is mented for
 
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goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
Chinese commissars never meddle with battlefield command like their soviet counterparts. This is *especially* true today. They are more like morale officers. In the most professional parts of the military, such as *special forces*, commissars are even more irrelevant. The size of special forces relates to China's power projection posture. Nothing to do with your fancying.

how about less wishful thinking+speculation from kingkongpride

Mod edit: If you want to complain/whine/ or otherwise present unrealistic wishes, do it in PM function or in proper forum
 
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hongkongpride

New Member
Can you provide any evidence that:

"Chinese commissars never meddle with battlefield command like their soviet counterparts."

My Fancying? Due to people like you, good soldiers lose their lives.
In the last border conflict/war the PLA fought with the PAVN (People's Army of Vietnam) in 1979, there were numerous instances of PLA political commissars executing their own men for desertion-understandable for the men given the PLA doctrine of frontal charges en masse at the time. However, we are not discussing tactics here.
More damning is that in the battle for the Vietnamese city of Lang Son, reports from papers at West Point indicate that due to a argument between the Political
Commisar and CO over which route to take into the city-the Vietnamese defenders were allowed to prepare for the coming assault and dig in-costing the PLA around 8500 men in bitter urban warfare. Although finally the PLA took the city, they were forced to withdraw a week later after the rapid redeployment of elite Vietnamese forces from the invasion of Cambodia back to Vietnam.

Globalsecurity.org library also state:
"China was one of only two countries in the world at the time that lacked the military rank system (the other being Albania), and thus commands were not effective. One author states "Chinese troops, attacking in poorly coordinated and insufficiently supported human wave assaults, were mowed down by the entrenched Vietnamese."[3]"

"This is *especially* true today."

As far as we know, PLA infantry doctrine is still classified-so we don't know whether this will happen again-especially since the dual command structure is still in place.

"In the most professional parts of the military, such as *special forces*, commissars are even more irrelevant."

How so? Do you have any proof?

"how about less wishful thinking+speculation from kingkongpride?"

If you really insist on posting crap that has no evidence to back you up, I suggest going back to your BF2 forum where you can make up all types of crap while getting away with it-you have already recieved a warning from the moderators for posting information from BF2 on this forum. Remember this forum is for serious military discussion only.
 
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goldenpanda

Banned Idiot
One of the main critiques of the political commissar system and the function of the
GPD is that the political commissar interferes with or usurps the duties of the
commander. If this is true, it can be a hindrance in combat, preventing decisive action
and costing lives. Many senior leaders, however, deny that this is the case. Instead, they
argue that the GPD and the political commissar system is a source of inspiration and
esprit d’corps that helps the commander."
...
In the Sino-Indian War of 1962, the PLA showed great acumen in carefully
executing the campaign according to the guidelines formulated by CCP Central Military
Commission: 1) "to beat Indian troops soundly, " and 2) "to wipe out the invading Indian
forces totally and rapidly." During the campaign, the PLA destroyed the fighting strength
and captured personnel of three brigades of the Indian Army (the 7th Brigade, including
its commander Brigadier Dalvi, the 62nd Brigade and the 4th Artillery Brigade). In
addition the PLA seriously mauled five other Indian brigades (the 11th, 48th, 65th, 67th,
and 114th).579 According to PLA records from archives, Indian casualties during the war
were 4,897 killed or wounded and 3,968 captured.580 Indian records differ on this, with
Indian Defense Ministry in 1965 showing 1,383 Indian soldiers were killed, 1,696
missing in action, and 3,968 soldiers captured, and 1,047 wounded.581 In comparison,
PLA casualties in the war were quite small, with 722 Chinese soldiers killed and 1,697
wounded. In addition, no soldier of the PLA was captured during the war, a rarity in the
history of warfare.582 The PLA did all of this damage to the Indian Army with the
equivalent of a reinforced corps (army), deployed and massed at the critical points along
the border.
...
from the examination of the combat decorations given for bravery in the Sino-Indian
War, my sense is that PLA leaders lead from the front. Party membership seems to lead
to leadership behaviors in other situations, and the responsibility that seems to flow from
being part of an elite organization like the communist party appears to makes soldier and
leaders take greater risk. The work of the GPD in promoting unit lineage and history
probably also contributes to the willingness of ordinary soldiers and leaders to take
extraordinary risks. The award data seems to imply that political commissars, directors
and instructors, if one can extrapolate from this case, stay out of the way of the
commander in combat. They are probably of more help than a hindrance.
And the
influence of the CCP and its members is positive. If commissars were leading “from the
front” one would expect them to have had a much higher casualty rate and rate of awards
for heroism.

quoted from rand conference paper by Larry Wortzel
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Please note how accurate chinese statistics are for the indian side.
chinese say: 4897 killed or wounded, 3968 captured
indians say: 1383 dead+1696 missing+1047 wounded = 5509 casulaties, 3968 captured

Compare this precision and restraint with usa. Yeah sure they destroyed luftwaffe several times over, killed 3 million vietnamese, pummeled PVA etc etc. Look at their washington d.c. Korean war memorial. Look what the numbers say on them today lol.

In the past decade there have been systematic efforts by the GPD to regularize and
systematize its role in personnel and the military discipline system of the PLA.586 As
early as 1988, the GPD and the military procurate system began to reach out to Western
armies to examine how due process and family law-related issues are managed.587 The
GPD has taken on more of a role as a career management organization encouraging the
PLA to become a more professional military force with a stronger emphasis on military
skills.
- same source as above

globalsecurity is neocon BS only you would cite. China kicked ass in 79--we got away with invading a soviet ally, where they had a naval base. can you link me to the west point papers? lol how would they know unless *we* explained to *them*. vietnam lost much more but they're too embarassed to explain themselves.

rest of your post is irrelevant as usual.
 
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Gollevainen

Colonel
VIP Professional
Registered Member
Golly wants to spend his vacation in peace...

NO OFFTOPIC BS!!!
Expecially with that cocky attitude without actually knowing anything.
My meassure is Up:nono: :nono:

I have cleaned up Goldenpanda's trail way too much...everywhere he post, I need to come to take care of the issues.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Some years ago I was told by a former Soviet Army soldier with DSG (desantno-sturmovaya gruppa- Airborne Troops-sturm group) that on the border with PRC some sodiers were killed, presumably by the PLA (SOF-my conjecture). aside fromfew documentary clips, I haven't seen anything about the
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. Does anyone know more here?

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china_ussr_e_88.jpg
 
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