*New J-10 Thread*

[crobato]

To Crobato:

The "Seccond generation" in common western practice is the "starfighter generation" which covered the first radar/AAM supersonic fighters like the MiG-21, Mirage III, F-104 Starfighter and J35 Draken. Third generation is described as the "phantom generation" which was clearly the next step from these (but not as big step as the on between third and fourth). Planes included to the third generation are F-4 Phantom, Mirage F1, MiG-23 and J37 Viggen and ofcourse J8II.

That is not what I know about Western parlance. The planes you described as "second generation" are nearly as equally technology and performance level as the "third generation" you mention. The technology change is only evolutionary not generational.

There is no change in doctrine, for one. Supersonic interception is top priority. The engines are still turbojet. There is no leap in aerodynamics, other than the variable wing concept, but the Phantom, the J37 (which uses fixed canards like Mirage III based Kfir), the Mirage F1 and the J-8II don't share that.

Relative stability is another feature in generational change, and a major one when it comes to maneuverbility. Mirage F1 and III don't have that, but 2000 has.

The differences between various generations cannot to be determine just blindly focusing on some design features without thier context. For example Mirage III and Mirage F1 features alot of similar aerodynamical features and even the same genration engine but are still considered to belong to different generation. Draken had 1st gen. Engine (Avon from Hunters) but was still the best 2nd generation fighter ever existed.

And the context of which you have failed to explain how. Unfortunately, there is no major doctrinal change between the Mirage III and the Mirage F1, the latter can only be described as the latter half of the 3rd generation while the Mirage III as the first half of the 3rd generation. The Starfighter itself was deployed concurrently with the Phantom, in fact, in the sixties, right when the Phantom was already in service, the Starfighter was considered quite an advanced fighter.

On the other hand, there is a major doctrinal change on the Mirage 2000 that was a result of the conflicts fought by 3rd generation planes---Vietnam War, Six Day War, Yom Kippur, and Indo-Pakistan conflicts. There is a renewed emphasis on maneuverbility for example, as well as low altitude performance and subsonic acceleration.

Generational differences is _about_ major design issues plus doctrinal context. Just like fifth generation is defined by supercruise and stealth.

Altough J8II may be one of the lesser third generation planes, it still is a third generation and there is clear and logical step in chinese aviation industry when it moveed from direct copies to somewhat indegenious design. All factors favours that J-8 and J-7 belongs to different generation.

There is never, never one mention in any PLA or Chinese literature that described the J-8II as a new generation fighter.

Argument aside, no one thinks that the J-8 belongs to a new generation above the J-7. The engine is literally the same, both use the WP-7 and later the WP-13 engines, and even the Kunlun. There is no fundamental difference in the aerodynamics, seem to work on the same principle, delta wing complete with area rule Coke bottle principle, same you see with the fifties Delta Dagger.

 

[AssassinsMace]

Here's a new looks like "official" video of the J-10 and longer too.

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[crobato]

This is an even cooler vid. More pics of J-10 no. 26 from the 44th, and confirms J-10B prototype no. 1023. So there must be at least 3 J-10B protos.

One of the early scene, the plane was quick to lift off from a short run, then pointed its nose up early, then zoomed up for the climb. The last scene on the vid had me going "wot?" The plane came in from a steep angle as he approached, then angled his nose up, then landed, parachute deployed. All this is indicative of a plane with low wing loading and high surplus power.

 

[tphuang]

this is a interview with J-10's principle developer.

核心提示：宋文骢院士指出，鸭式布局是我们和国外同步研究的，歼10的外形和气动布局完全是我们自己搞出来的。其实，熟知中国航空史的人都知道我们有过一款夭折的战机——歼9，它是世界上首批采用鸭式布局的战机之一。所以认为歼10是“狮”仿制品的说法是多么的可笑和浅薄。 a]?}~YJy
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“歼10之父”——宋文骢院士（注：宋文骢是歼10的总设计师；杨伟是双座教练型歼10B的总设计师，并为数字电传控制系统作出杰出贡献。） uBuDf42nNz
　　 U)A +|7y=
　　1986年，56岁的宋文骢被国防科工委任命为国家重点型号飞机总设计师，此后的20多年，他为了我国新型歼击机的研制殚精竭虑，呕心沥血。在他四十多年的航空生涯中，总是不畏艰难，大胆创新，努力抢占航空科技发展的制高点，以满腔的报国热情，施展着航空建设的蓝图，让战斗之鹰在蓝天中展翅翱翔。 r5*A])QN
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　　记者：我们知道，您担任了多款新型飞机的设计总师，当您亲自严格把关设计生产的飞机在蓝天中翱翔的时候，您心里是什么样的感觉呢？ nS)3
　　 GNyUP<X
　　宋文骢：歼-7某改进型、新型飞机两次首飞时，我的心情是不同的。歼-7某改进型首飞时，我的心情非常紧张，担心起落架或什么地方会出现问题，两眼紧紧盯着飞机不敢移动。新型飞机首飞的时候，心情非常激动但并不紧张。按理说新型飞机采用了新布局、新系统、新成品、新技术等等，难度大得多，但因为我知道我们的方案时先进的，设计是严密的，技术是过硬的，元器件、子系统都进行了自上而下的综合，进行了反复的地面试验。 >HSpf,QF
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　　记者：在新机研制过程中您积极地推荐新式气动布局方案，这有什么意义吗？ DH#)(Xc'6
　　 ]C2v2ht
　　宋文骢：鸭式布局是我们和国外同步开始研究地，当年搞歼-9型战机无水平尾翼方案的时候，我们就提出了鸭式无尾布局。60年代，美国开始研究利用脱体涡来增加飞机升力。我们在歼-9战机上进行了试验。为了新型战斗机的布局方案，我们做了很多试验，在确定方案前，风洞就吹了上万次。我国新型战机的外形设计和气动布局完全是我们自己搞出来的，没有借助国外的力量，这一点我觉得很骄傲，很自豪。 GC_0~HSE
　　 =JauX0Q (
　　我国在1960年代发展的歼9，这是采用鸭式布局的方案。 0lfJ?$+P>
　　 G1QpaLBX
　　所以，那些认为歼10是以色列“狮”翻版的说法是多么的可笑。 rT>JAGG>4
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　　记者：我们了解到有一次，新型飞机第一次顺利完成了过声速飞行，大家都沉浸在喜悦之中，但是您却认为并不理想，决定再对新机进行多方面的修改，您是否在任何细节上都坚持最好的品质保障呢？ t+~HY2
　　 Vcx#GK%Z
　　宋文聪：是，我觉得一个庞大的工程不仅要关注整体，更要注意解决每一个局部的关键技术问题。作为总设计师，我也要考虑地更深远些。可能有些人会认为一些模具和零件要报废，要花费更多的时间和精力，但我们作为飞机的设计者，必须每时每刻都打硬战，我们交出的必须是一个完整的没有质疑的答案，这样才算完成了自己的责任。


歼-10实际重量比原设计目标重量减轻２６公斤

歼十飞机是我国自行研制，具备当今世界先进水平的新一代、高性能、全天候战斗机。随着歼十飞机的研制定型和装备部队，我国形成了一整套具有自主知识产权的第三代战斗机设计技术。而实现这一关键突破的就是歼十飞机总设计师、中国工程院院士宋文骢。 $yX"
　　宋文骢先后参与了歼七、歼八、歼十等多个飞机型号研制，是我国惟一担任过两代国家重点型号飞机研制并走完全程的总设计师。他先后主持和参与研制改进我国轻型全天候中、高空高速歼击机和轻小型全天候战斗机。 wuOKLrP
　　 QQn1b`
　　先进的气动布局是自主发展先进战斗机的基础。歼十飞机研制初期，宋文骢就清醒地意识到新机研制必须充分应用当前国际航空领域的先进技术，他提出必须攻克一系列重大关键技术。他带领气动专业的设计人员投入模型生产、风洞试验、数据分析、布局改进等繁重的设计试验，转战南北，进行了上万次试验，采集并处理上百万个气动数据。几个月后，在新歼方案论证会上，宋文骢从战术技术要求到飞机的使命性能、系统结构、武器火控等讲起，４小时的报告赢得满场喝彩，我国新一代歼击机有了雏形。 LLr K
　　 EbC R9!
　　在这之后两年多时间里，经过多次论证、研究和评审，新的方案被确定为我国新一代战机歼十的总体方案。随后，歼十飞机项目被列为国家重大专项，５６岁的宋文骢被任命为歼十飞机总设计师。 C)V>N}=f)x
　　 7b; ~P

　　歼十飞机起点高，技术新，跨度大，然而研制初期却技术基础薄弱。作为设计工作的组织者、指挥者和重大技术问题决定者，宋文骢从方案设计到结构材料，从技术标准到专业设置，从工艺生产到成品研制处处都以创新为根本，采用集总体、气动、飞控为一体的综合/优化设计方法，走出了一条自主创新之路。 k~{qSJ
'

　　 2J" w]Nq
　　数字式综合航空电子系统设计与综合在我国是一项全新技术，数字式电传飞控设计技术在我国航空领域更是空白。要实现研制突破，最关键的是没有掌握高技术的人才，我国的研制体制和部分专业设置也不健全。
　　１９８５年，宋文骢主持组建起了我国第一个航空电子系统研究室。一边组建，一边学习，逐渐形成了航空电子系统组、航空电子系统动态模拟仿真组、机载OFP软件开发组等多个核心专业组。我国第一个完整的航空电子专业体系在一航成都所诞生。随后，飞行与品质控制设计试验研究室也在一航成都所成立。新一代航电系统、飞控系统设计研制有了新的战场，为歼十飞机研制开辟了更广阔的天地。 %:$U)\AK
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　　以提高整体作战效能为出发点，为增强系统可靠性和维护性，降低飞行员操作难度，宋文骢率先提出“自顶而下进行设计，自下而上综合试验”、各大系统都必须由总设计单位综合的系统设计思想，经过多次攻关和试验，新系统综合集成技术取得成功。这种系统设计思想不仅用于航电武器系统，还在全机各系统和整个飞机平台上实现了成功集成。 &w,:Y)<
　　 0V>XyRci%6
　　歼十飞机是涉及１００多个参研单位、２０多个部委和行业的国家重点工程。针对新一代战机的研制特点，宋文骢大胆地进行管理创新，建立起了一整套符合我国国情的飞机系统工程管理体系和措施。他充分发挥设计师系统、质量师系统的统领作用，制订了一系列跨行业、跨部门的设计师系统管理文件和程序，实行产品技术状态活页式档案管理，大大提高了产品质量和设计水平。宋文骢建立起严密的重量控制体系，在国内飞机研制上首创重量承包先例，使歼十飞机的实际重量比原设计目标重量减轻了２６公斤，创造了重量控制的最优纪录。　　 2^/G4x %2
　　几十年来，为国家的最高利益，他长期隐遁在绮丽纷呈的幕后，感受寂寞、默默奉献，将毕生的精力投入到祖国航空工业腾飞的伟大事业之中。他的严谨求实，他的创新精神，他的技术造诣，和强烈的爱国情怀，激励着一代又一代航空人。 id[}78
　　 *<:7Ak$y
　　今天，在宋文骢的培养和带领下，一航成都所已培育出一支掌握了航空先进技术的青年专家队伍，他们是站在航空科技前沿的航电专家、飞控专家和机械、软件开发优秀人才，他们是21世纪中国航空工业腾飞的希望。 agsGfCAM5
　　 6;NE[;*U~
　　“宋文骢”这三个字，将与我国自行研制的、具有自主知识产权的歼十飞机一起，永远闪耀在中国航空工业腾飞的光辉史册上。 (Dfu%`mh
　　 DX#Q&
　　龙腾东方寄壮志。歼十飞机承载了宋文骢等一代航空人的报国壮志，歼十飞机的研制成功推动了我国整个航空工业的技术进步，为后续系列化发展奠定了坚实基础，航空工业迎来了新纪元。 '<-kd0p6r
　　 W`:g1EM
　　（人民网-《中国航空报》歼-10号外　2007年1月5日星期五　 第2版）

An interesting point is where they reported J-10 actually ended up 26 kg less than the original design

 

[tphuang]

seems like Western media is finally taking notice of J-10's unveiling. Anyhow, many article similar to this are posted.

By Lee Spears
Jan. 5 (Bloomberg) -- China Aviation Industry Corp. I, the
country's biggest aircraft maker, unveiled the Jian-10, a fighter
jet developed completely using proprietary technology.
The state-owned company, also known as AVIC I, and the
domestic defense industry developed the fighter, its Taihang
engine and a new generation of guided missiles, the
company's deputy general manager Geng Ruguang said at a press
briefing in Beijing, where a demonstration video was shown.
``The Jian-10 uses a lot of new technology and materials,''
Geng said. ``China is the world's fourth country with the
capability to develop its own advanced fighter aircraft, engine
and guided missiles, closing the gap with advanced nations.''
Geng didn't say how much the fighter cost to develop or how
much it would sell for. China's airforce has been equipped with
the new air-to-air missiles, he said.

more TV clips - interview with more J-10 people

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clip from aviationnow

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[crobato]

I think su-27 would be in real trouble against ROCAF Mirage 2K5.

I would think so too. But in these 16 years, I would think the PLAAF knows that and would have done some homework in countering this.

 

[simonov]

1999年，何斌斌等第二批四名试飞员进入型号调整试飞，这是更大强度的试飞——只有飞出极限值，新型战机 的性能才能得到拓展，战斗力才能得到提升；因为是极限情况，在第三代飞机的研制过程中，国外无一例外都摔过 飞机。


I try babelfish, to translate this, who is Heibin Bin?Tq

 

[DarkEminence]

China unveils indigenous fighter jet

By Benjamin Kang LimSat Jan 6, 4:24 AM ET

China has unveiled its Jian-10 multi-role indigenous fighter jet, marking a "historic leap forward" and narrowing a technological gap with major military powers, state media said on Saturday.

China is the fourth country in the world capable of developing its own advanced fighter aircraft, engines and air-to-air missiles, the People's Daily, the mouthpiece of the Communist Party, said in a front page story.

The newspaper did not identify the three other countries, but defense analysts said it was apparently referring to the United States, Russia and France.

"The Jian-10 is superior to the SU-27 but inferior to the SU-30," a military source who spoke on condition of anonymity told Reuters, referring to Russia's Sukhoi fighter jets.

A five-minute video was shown to Chinese reporters in Beijing on Friday, revealing how the fighter takes off, lands, fires missiles and flies in formation, the official Xinhua news agency said. Foreign journalists were barred from the news conference.

The Beijing Daily, the Guangming Daily, the Farmers' Daily and Internet portals splashed pictures of fighters taking off and pilots marching past a row of fighters.

"It has increasingly become apparent the J-10 has the potential of becoming one of the most significant fighters in the next few decades,"

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said on its Web site.

But Xinhua quoted unnamed military experts as saying the Jian-10 cannot match the performance of fourth-generation U.S. fighter jets, but its basic design and indigenous equipment are comparable to those of mainstream fighter aircraft in the West.

As many as 300 Jian-10 may be produced, sinodefence.com said.

The Jian-10 first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force service in 2003, sinodefence.com said, adding that the single-seat and twin-seat trainer are "all-weather, high-performance multi-role fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles."

"(It) marks a breakthrough in China's research and development of heavy fighter aircraft," Liu Gaozhuo, executive commander in chief of the Jian-10 program, told Xinhua.

According to China's defense policy paper released last December, the air force is reducing the number of combat aircraft, giving priority to the development of new fighters as well as air and missile defense weapons.

The China Aviation Industry Corp. I, China's leading aircraft manufacturer, provided the armed forces with 90 percent of its airborne weapons.

AVIC I has produced 15,000 aircraft, 50,000 aero-engines and more than 10,000 missiles. Company sales rose for the sixth straight year last year, hitting 80 billion yuan ($10.3 billion), up 15.7 percent. Profits surged 42 percent to 3 billion yuan.

China has claimed Taiwan as its own since their split in 1949 amid civil war and vowed to attack the self-ruled democratic island if it formally declares independence.

The United States and Japan are to discuss in February joint plans for their troops to deal with a potential stand-off between China and Taiwan, Japanese media said.

($1 = 7.80 yuan)

(Additional reporting by Guo Shipeng and Li Jiansheng)

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This, according to Yahoo. It's good that they quote the site!

 

[David2007]

In April 2006 the cost for each F-22A is assessed by the Government Accountability Office to be $361 million per aircraft.

Source:

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That makes the Raptor about 10-12 times the cost of a J-10?
I wonder if the Raptor is even 3 times better than a J-10.
Regardless, with the sophisticated missiles they both have, they just become expensive launch platforms.

 

[mehdi]

some new pics I hope someone can tell me why this model of the J-10 has 2 FLIR pods. Normally it is supposed to have only one and the other space is taken by a laser designator.