New J-10 thread II

[fishhead]

Fishhead: while it may take a long time to "mature", that doesn't mean you don't use the engine. In fact it will never mature if it doesn't get used. The reason older designs are considered more mature is because they've been used and tweaked for so long.

Normally you just specify a shorter time-before-overhaul for a new design and inspect carefully for any signs of trouble.

Well, before its maturing, small batch trial production is possible but large production will be very costy in maintenance. That kind of production will tie down your engineers instead of technicians, to constantly trouble shooting field problems. I've seen some applications in aerospace indsutry that every single shippment has a different configuration, which blow the whole program budget to 3-10 times very easily. And they're not as complicated as the engine.

If Chinese want to replace AL-31 with WS-10A, WS-10A annual production has to be more than 100 at least, considering spare parts, and J11B engines, a number very unlikely now.

 

[AmiGanguli]

Well, before its maturing, small batch trial production is possible but large production will be very costy in maintenance. That kind of production will tie down your engineers instead of technicians, to constantly trouble shooting field problems. I've seen some applications in aerospace indsutry that every single shippment has a different configuration, which blow the whole program budget to 3-10 times very easily. And they're not as complicated as the engine.

Presumably they have to take this into account when they make their budget.

I guess the compromise would be ramp up gradually, but I don't know if that really happens in practice. You can't just tell your customers to go elsewhere if you want to stay in business. Though I suppose PLAAF isn't a typical customer, and they have more flexibility than most, since they have access to the Russian engines as a fallback.

... Ami.

 

[crobato]

Like I said before, every month passes without a new AL-31FN order, makes it likely the odds will go to the WS-10A.

In paper, it can be said the WS-10A may not be enough, and that a backup order for Russian engines may be warranted. In reality, the company that makes the engine will say, no, we got the capacity and we can supply you. They would surely also want the J-10 business, and if you know human nature, you cannot underestimate what greed does. The party officials will push it further because that means more income and employment to their constituents, which in turn means better career opportunities for the officials involved. Given the government's mania to find jobs for people, job creation is the golden word that will tilt the balance.

The drive to indigenization is not some policy just driven by nationalism, its one driven by real greed. Which makes it a very strong and irresistable force. It is still an industry you know, and better to line the money in your pockets than someone else.

 

[tphuang]

Well, before its maturing, small batch trial production is possible but large production will be very costy in maintenance. That kind of production will tie down your engineers instead of technicians, to constantly trouble shooting field problems. I've seen some applications in aerospace indsutry that every single shippment has a different configuration, which blow the whole program budget to 3-10 times very easily. And they're not as complicated as the engine.

If Chinese want to replace AL-31 with WS-10A, WS-10A annual production has to be more than 100 at least, considering spare parts, and J11B engines, a number very unlikely now.

We have plenty of articles from AVIC-1 that says mass production of WS-10A has started. You can check them out in the WS-10A thread. As for exactly how many can they produce per year, that we don't know.

 

[tphuang]

From the April 17th edition of HKB (aerospace daily)

歼十改装“中国心”工程已启动

《中国航空报》4月17日第一版有一篇报道，标题是“按时完成发图任务，我们有信心！——一航成都所重点型号发图纪实”。 5T_GQp0 ;
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(<WeZ
报道说，一月份确定重点型号发图时间节点，说“重点型号外形布局变化大，但又要保证主要结构交点和设备接口不变，保证其他专业的延续性，今年两进安全级的改动保持最小”……“前机身专业协调量尤为突出，前机身是机上设备主要安置部位，又是操纵全机的驾驶员的座舱所在位置，几乎与全机所有专业都有协调关系”。 “请相关专业、厂里工艺人员先期介入，保证方案可行及优化，为最后冲刺节省时间”…… rQ2OJdX

basically saying CAC's major item design has finalized. It says that this was achieved in January and that the important class (J-10)'s external changes are quite large, but they tried to maintain structural connection and equipment connection do not change, ensure that other subject's continuation. This year, the two that is entering the safety level's changes are the smallest? The front part of the plane is where most of the equipment are put....
My guess is that modified J-10 (not just the minor changes in avionics or engine), but change in structure is finally getting somewhere. Maybe we will see it fly next year.

 

[Deino]

From the April 17th edition of HKB (aerospace daily)

basically saying CAC's major item design has finalized. It says that this was achieved in January and that the important class (J-10)'s external changes are quite large, but they tried to maintain structural connection and equipment connection do not change, ensure that other subject's continuation. This year, the two that is entering the safety level's changes are the smallest? The front part of the plane is where most of the equipment are put....
My guess is that modified J-10 (not just the minor changes in avionics or engine), but change in structure is finally getting somewhere. Maybe we will see it fly next year.

Hu ... that's sounds really interesting and seems truely to indicate not only a "simple" engine-change ! ... maybe one of the improved versions that were said to have already flown !

Cheers, Deino

 

[crobato]

Sounds really major. More than just a Taihang engine change. I sense that this may be a two engined project with two WS-13s (two Taihangs would force too much structural changes). Rather than produce a full heavyweight fighter in the Su-27 class, this is more of a twin engined medium fighter in the MiG-29/Rafale/Typhoon/Hornet class.

 

[kickars]

Rather than produce a full heavyweight fighter in the Su-27 class, this is more of a twin engined medium fighter in the MiG-29/Rafale/Typhoon/Hornet class.

I always thought Typhoon is a heavyweight fighter. Coz in the west when it was introduced, it's been compared to F-22 which is a heavyweight fighter. Anyway, what if they put two WS-10A in J-10? I suppose it would need even bigger change to the structure. But then it surely will be considered as a heavyweight.

 

[Mike Powell]

Hello, pleasure to meet you all.

Well, it's been a while I see the J-10 fighter. And I must the air intake is quite mean-looking. Don't mess with me, maybe that's her word.

Anyway, although most of the technical aspect seems clear but still, I need to know more about their avionic system. Well, someclaim that she's as advance as the mid-series F-16 while others says that F-16 is better than J-10.

 

[Schumacher]

Are the twin engine J-10 & the so called stealthy J-xx projects completely separate or does this news of some progress on J-10 indicate J-xx has become of lower priority or stalled ?