New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

dingyibvs said:

OK, I see it now, the highlighting actually obscured the text for me, I didn't see either the green or red highlighted sections.

I'm saying that the tradeoff in practice is 1) not very relevant if present, and 2) not clearly present because you're comparing two very different classes of vehicles. Consumers compare between cargo/passenger capacity and absolute fuel economy among the same class of vehicles, not between different classes. The L9 is a full-size luxury SUV while the Highlander is a mid-size economy SUV. I mentioned weight and tire sizes because those are typically the things that make luxury vehicles less fuel efficient than their economy counterparts even when they're based on the same platform and drive train.

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As my said before, that trade off is one for real automotive engineers to make for consumers.

BYD could easily create a series-only hybrid, but they are doing the more prevalent series-parallel design.

Just different options, a consumer can choose based on price, performance, gas efficiency, etc.

Also, I think you may not be aware of the new Grand Highlander which is 3-row/7 passenger extended wheelbase (aka Full-Size) compared to the regular Highlander. There will be a Lexus version as well, but I did not use price, so it would be technically similar.

As an aside, I don’t really think the Highlander can be considered “economy” based on the price, but that’s not really important for this discussion, lol.

siegecrossbow said:

Learned their lesson.

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Doesn't mean they won't come back with a different partner and bid

mossen said:

It was always a stupid plan. At least BYD got burned before they invested rather than after, like many other Chinese companies, thereby avoiding losses. Hopefully other Chinese companies are paying attention and won't repeat the same mistake.

Really, most of the world outside of India and the US is pretty open. This year we've seen LatAm + MENA + ASEAN + Eastern Europe investments from a range of Chinese EV & battery companies. Double down on what works.

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Why was it a stupid plan? Again, BYD has terms that it's happy with. Every market has its risks & rewards. BYD is already in India regardless of whether it builds a plant there. If it ends up building a plant there, it just really depends on whether the tariff savings is worth the possibility of being forced to sell plant for pennies down the road. Only BYD can find out how much additional sales and earnings it can make by having a plant there and how much money it may loose if it's forced to sell to a local partner for half the plant's value in 5 years.

Let me ask you something. Let's say BYD makes $5000/car w/o a plant and sells 10000/year, but $8000/car and 30000/year with a plant.

former, it makes $50 million a year. Latter it makes $240 million a year. Let's say down the road, it goes has to sell its $1B plant for $800million and gets $200 million confiscated. Mathematically, it's still logical to do this trade off as long as they can do this for 4 or 5 years. But because they loose money unfairly, you would rather they don't do the plant?

btw, I've tweeted on this already. I think India is making a mistake here.

French minister is coming to BYD to get a plant in France. Everyone is coming to BYD to bring EV industry into their country. BYD has a lot of things going on. It doesn't need to beg to build plants outside of China. It's hot stuff. But at some point, there might be a deal out there that would make sense for both BYD and Indian govt. I don't see why BYD should avoid building factory in India just because it might have some of its profits confiscated

tphuang said:

btw, I've tweeted on this already. I think India is making a mistake here.

French minister is coming to BYD to get a plant in France. Everyone is coming to BYD to bring EV industry into their country. BYD has a lot of things going on. It doesn't need to beg to build plants outside of China. It's hot stuff. But at some point, there might be a deal out there that would make sense for both BYD and Indian govt. I don't see why BYD should avoid building factory in India just because it might have some of its profits confiscated

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I think this topic has been done to death and everyone made their views clear. Don't see anything productive coming out from discussing it further.

Other than that, can BYD scale their operations worldwide this quickly? Surely, there must be a limit on how many factories they can get up and running in the next 3-5 years. Tesla had issues scaling as well, which is what delayed their expansion.

supersnoop said:

I am going to be a lawyer-style weasel and note that I said "basically all" and not "absolutely all"
But I looked at a review of L9 SUV

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It said fuel efficiency is 10 L/100 Km highway. That is pretty bad considering it is a inline 4.

Considering other 3-row SUVs:
Gasoline Grand Highlander (I4T) at 8.6 L/100 Km Highway
Hybrid at 7.0 L
Chevy Tahoe (V8 with Cylinder Deactivation) at 11.8 L

So basically there is a big fuel efficiency penalty to operate in a solely series setup, using almost as much gas as a good ol' USA BOF truck on the highway.

In other news
I bought an Autel Maxicharger and I see that they have already offshored their production to Vietnam. Quite surprised that a new product like this is already being produced outside of China (where their HQ is)

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The L9 SUV really gives me Rivian vibes. It looks a lot nicer to me than the Grand Highlander, on the interior at least. I'm not a big fan of Toyota's interior design though, so maybe I'm being a bit biased. I think if I had the choice, I would buy the L9 SUV without hesitation. I'd want to see more 3rd party reviews though.

So it seems like quietly, but surely the MG4 is raking up quite a bit of praise in Europe and the UK

Maybe this is a bit of UK bias as SAIC maintains the development centre in Longbridge, but it is still a good achievement considering how much flashier NIO and XPENG are. It seems like the MG4 basically nailed all the basics. Funny because outside of Wuling, SAIC isn't a top seller at home.

HighGround said:

The L9 SUV really gives me Rivian vibes. It looks a lot nicer to me than the Grand Highlander, on the interior at least. I'm not a big fan of Toyota's interior design though, so maybe I'm being a bit biased. I think if I had the choice, I would buy the L9 SUV without hesitation. I'd want to see more 3rd party reviews though.

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Honestly, I have no idea why I chose the Grand Highlander as a benchmark. I could've picked something more established like a Chevy Traverse/GMC Acadia. Could be because the guy parking next to me everyday drives a regular Highlander...

Li Auto could probably do well in North America, but they seem like one of the less ambitious startups (but that's mostly because NIO and XPENG are probably overly ambitious).

BYD & SPIC have signed strategic agreement. I'd imagine for ESS & Solar energy. BYD's second such agreement in recent month after CEC in May

banner school recruiting season for BYD. Recruited 31800 grads with 80% of them going to do R&D jobs. Last year, BYD spent 20.2B RMB in R&D. Should be a lot higher this year

Dolphin doing well in Brazil. Received over 3000 orders in 1 month and to be delivered by end of August. It got 1254 orders in the first week

supersnoop said:

So it seems like quietly, but surely the MG4 is raking up quite a bit of praise in Europe and the UK

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Maybe this is a bit of UK bias as SAIC maintains the development centre in Longbridge, but it is still a good achievement considering how much flashier NIO and XPENG are. It seems like the MG4 basically nailed all the basics. Funny because outside of Wuling, SAIC isn't a top seller at home.



Honestly, I have no idea why I chose the Grand Highlander as a benchmark. I could've picked something more established like a Chevy Traverse/GMC Acadia. Could be because the guy parking next to me everyday drives a regular Highlander...

Li Auto could probably do well in North America, but they seem like one of the less ambitious startups (but that's mostly because NIO and XPENG are probably overly ambitious).

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MG in Goodwood Helps a lot, good advertising and also brand nostalgic among British car enthusiast. With 3 new models especially the Cyberster their British handlers sure know how to put a show.

You guys think France will convince BYD to build a factory there (instead of Spain, Germany)?

While from a government foreign policy perspective France is an ideal place for a factory location, I am more sceptical of it due to strong government regulation, workers and unions rights which could potentially cause issues to BYD in the future

Overbom said:

You guys think France will convince BYD to build a factory there (instead of Spain, Germany)?

While from a government foreign policy perspective France is an ideal place for a factory location, I am more sceptical of it due to strong government regulation, workers and unions rights which could potentially cause issues to BYD in the future

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As I said many times, they will build multiple factories in Europe. Like they are doing in Asia. Byd is very political savvy.

More details on BYD dolphin & brazil. A lot of expansion coming. Seal should be launched soon