New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China

supersnoop

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Tech transfer is not nearly as easy and simple as politics or propaganda portrays. Basically all non-tech people were talking. Cases in point:

(1) SAIC is an abject failure of China auto JV strategy.
SAIC helps VW and GM dominate the markets as well as helps those companies achieve efficiencies they could only dream. SAIC never mastered ICE technologies. It is basically a merchant and an assembler. But Shanghai has wasted enormous resources and opportunities because of SAIC JVs. It would have been a lot better if SAIC went a self-sufficient hard way.

(2) FAW was the cradle of China auto industry.
But FAW lost its independent importance after its JVs. FAW has never learned what it supposed to learn from its JV partners.

(3) SAW a.k.a. Dong Feng became nobody
Worse than FAW, it went with JVs and never focused on its own development. Where is Dong Feng nowadays?

(4) BYD
BYD is a "土生土长" Chinese auto company by an "安徽老土". I guess Wang Chuan Fu is laughing all the way to the bank while laughing his ass off of JVs and SOEs.

(5) Great Wall
Great Wall found its niche and established its brand while surrounded by a bunch of JV wolfs.

Technology transfer is way more overrated than most think.

I agree with your overall assessment, but I think some of the reasoning is not totally correct.

Joint Venture's issue is less technological, but more business. SAIC must balance the needs of their JV partners against their own. On top of this, SAIC is government owned corporation, so any bad faith actions by SAIC would be interpreted as state action against foreign partners which would harm potential future investment.

India is a perfect example of how harmful that can be. Ford left, GM left, etc.

Tech transfer stemming from JV was only one piece of the puzzle. The JV formation also provided exposure to western business practices and modern management techniques, over time building a competent cadre of business people who can subsequently bring the expertise elsewhere as well. Another piece would be providing a springboard for overseas educated and settled Chinese to return to China in a more familiar corporate setting. It sounds like a silly example, but you look at KFC China and actually it was quite important in this regard.

Executing tech transfer without the proper foundation is basically dooming yourself to failure.

Again India, you look at the Su-30, they had technology transfer agreement in place, but even today cannot build their own Flankers. When they tried to force technology transfer for Rafale, Dassault refused to warranty locally assembled aircraft because they could not guarantee the quality.

Back to the auto industry, Proton which had full support of the Malaysian government became a joke. So many decades and they could not even build a car that was better than Geely.
 

tphuang

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BYD is nuts, with lockdowns sales increased

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This is a preliminary breakdown by models. I do think they have too many models. It would be good if they didn't have this many lineups.
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The other interesting part of watch is how much their battery installation increased. It actually increased by even more in the deployed battery last month. This might be the more interesting point of watch. They have so many battery plants coming online and they could very well be the 2nd largest battery producer by the end of this year. I'd be curious also to see who is getting its battery deliveries since they might be doubling in production this year.

this is BYD's advantage. It has perfected vertical integration and plant diversification across China. It can handle shutdowns better than anyone in China. If you want a car to be delivered in China, BYD is your best bet.
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It's good to see this too. In the short term, the biggest EV export item to European countries out of China might well be Tesla. I think it was something like 90% localized components. Musk is a powerful voice on China's side as long as Tesla is treated fairly.

Executing tech transfer without the proper foundation is basically dooming yourself to failure.

Again India, you look at the Su-30, they had technology transfer agreement in place, but even today cannot build their own Flankers. When they tried to force technology transfer for Rafale, Dassault refused to warranty locally assembled aircraft because they could not guarantee the quality.

Back to the auto industry, Proton which had full support of the Malaysian government became a joke. So many decades and they could not even build a car that was better than Geely.
Right, not that many countries have shown the ability to take advantage of ToT and localized production. On the other hand, that level of commitment from the host country will help significantly to open up local market share. I don't see EV or batteries as standalone technologies. I see them as soft power tools in promoting China across the world. It raises the world wide perception of China. The greatest gain for them are these ASEAN and other Asian countries that don't have prominent domestic independent automakers. Nothing stopping large Chinese automakers like BYD and Geely or battery makers like CATL from making their mark here. Don't be afraid of ToT. You need to find ways to share technology, but also protect your most sensitive technology. If you are confident in your engineering team, then they will be able to continually improve and develop newer/better technology. Countries that rely on your technology will have a hard time catching up when they are buys absorbing your old technology.
 

tphuang

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Rivian and Lucid are long ways from being profitable or capable of ramping up production.

At this point, only Tesla and BYD have really been ramping up production on NEV production. Even more impressive for BYD is their battery production ramp up. Their April total is 3 times that of last year. And based on tweet from last week, it will go up another 3 to 4 folds by end of 2023 with all the announced new capacities from this year. Which means, they could be installing 25 GWh monthly installation by the end of 2023, which would be a 5 fold increase over Q1 this year, when they had around 11% market share. In a few years, they may very well be battling CATL as the largest battery producer. I think the reason that other countries can't compete against China in battery manufacturing is because how quickly China can just build new plants and at low costs. Even in US gov't sinks $10 billion in battery projects, it would not be able to build this many new battery facilities this quickly. It's quite extraordinary.

I didn't realize this before, but looks like BYD Dolphin entered Philippines already. This is quite significant. It's far and away the cheapest normal sized BEV in the market. I think it will do very well in bringing EV to the masses.
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here is a clip of BYD Dolphin from Manila showroom
 

ansy1968

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Rivian and Lucid are long ways from being profitable or capable of ramping up production.

At this point, only Tesla and BYD have really been ramping up production on NEV production. Even more impressive for BYD is their battery production ramp up. Their April total is 3 times that of last year. And based on tweet from last week, it will go up another 3 to 4 folds by end of 2023 with all the announced new capacities from this year. Which means, they could be installing 25 GWh monthly installation by the end of 2023, which would be a 5 fold increase over Q1 this year, when they had around 11% market share. In a few years, they may very well be battling CATL as the largest battery producer. I think the reason that other countries can't compete against China in battery manufacturing is because how quickly China can just build new plants and at low costs. Even in US gov't sinks $10 billion in battery projects, it would not be able to build this many new battery facilities this quickly. It's quite extraordinary.

I didn't realize this before, but looks like BYD Dolphin entered Philippines already. This is quite significant. It's far and away the cheapest normal sized BEV in the market. I think it will do very well in bringing EV to the masses.
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here is a clip of BYD Dolphin from Manila showroom
@tphuang Sir that guy is a Hua qiao who is part of my generation, I'm going political so please excuse me BUT this acceptance will become a trend, with every new innovative product coming from China. It's soft power grew. He is part of the elite and his father had a mindset that everything from the Chinese Mainland are bad. So in a way BYD, Huawei, Xiaomi , OPPO and others are starting to smash the wall of discrimination. FYI he bought a Geely Okavango trading his luxury car for this Chinese vehicle daily used speaks volume of how far the Chinese Car industry had come.

An addendum: With the trade restriction imposed by the US and from the Collective West, for us here in the global south is a good thing as the Chinese was forced to focus on other markets. We can now enjoy the same quality of life and luxury that the Western world enjoys. And we had to thank China for it, this vehicle cost about $29,000, with European luxury style and driving comfort, a comparable Japanese and Korean counterpart cost almost twice the amount and it may even cost more IF you want to match the interior accessories and tech which is Standard for the Chinese Car. So we have a rethink BUT full EV adoption may take at least 15 years as the necessary infrastructure are lacking and I'm talking Metro Manila as an example the most modern city in the Philippines, what more from other parts of the country, were basic services are wanting.

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The 2021 Geely Okavango is the most economical , afforably luxurious 7 seater crossover in the market today. This Geely 7 ...
 
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tphuang

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A couple of more points for Q1. The export figure for NEV is about 150k, which is great sign considering they exported just 500k last year and Q1 is normally a small quarter and also Tesla didn't export much in Q1 (they exported 163k last year from China IIRC).

Domestic brand NEV is about 46% and among premium NEV is about 32% (so Tesla, NIO, XPeng) and such. It'd be interesting to see how the shut down affect the Q2 numbers. Due to its diversified factory locations and vertical integration, it is likely to do far better than other automakers in China.

As we heard yesterday, Tesla is expanding its production capacity big time in China.
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I think it's absolutely hilarious that Rivian is talking about building factory in Saudi Arabia. They are not going to last. Tesla's continued expansion in China means that a lot of the Asian and European Tesla production will come from Shanghai. That will continue to strengthen Tesla suppliers like CATL in their global position.

It's quite clear Tesla is able to produce cars a lot more cheaply in Shanghai than anywhere in the world. the supply chain in China is efficient and able to scale up quickly. That is not possible anywhere else in the world.

Bloomberg opinion finally published their article on many tweets regarding US losing EV battery race
the tweet replies would indicate many people only want to hear good news and not that China has a dominant head start here.

It's also kind of funny that US automakers are now pressuring South Koreans to share their battery tech, when the Koreans are falling further and further behind China. They could just do what Tesla does and buy Chinese batteries.
 

tphuang

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CATL expects to have 670 GWh of annual battery production by 2025
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It also said in earnings call that it's exploring North American plant. Looks like Mexico is the most probably location.
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Circling back on the tweets from a few days ago, if BYD has already announced over 500 GWh of battery plant by now, there is a good chance it will have more GWh than CATL by 2025. So while BYD is at 1/3 of CATL's capacity in Q1 and less than LG Chem, I expect it to make a huge jump over the next couple of years and compete with CATL as the top battery producer. Blade is a game changer.

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Blade battery 2.0 going from 150 wh/kg to 180 wh/kg.

This is going to make the density higher than CATL's latest LFP technology of 160 wh/kg in CT
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So BYD probably has the cheapest, safest and most dense LFP battery in the market. They just need to ramp up their production.
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analysts expect them to have accelerated sales growth in second half with all the new factories coming online.

One other thing that analysts have noted is that BYD doesn't have as high gross margin as Tesla. I tend to think that's because it's doing such a huge and unprecedented ramp up with so much research and capital cost. Just imagine not only the cost of building factories and building new machineries, but also hiring and training so many new employees and dealing with so many new local government that they cannot possibly get same margin vs less aggressive competition.

One thing I do find a little confusing is how many models they have. Their lineup is so much broader than Tesla/NIO/XPeng. In their most recent Ocean series, it seems like Dolphin and Sea Gull are filling up the lower end/small car market that they don't offer in the dynasty series. But Seal is broadly comparable to Han and Sea Lion may be comparable to Tang? It's quite possible these new models will simply confuse customers or at least displace the dynasty series.
 

sndef888

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One thing I do find a little confusing is how many models they have. Their lineup is so much broader than Tesla/NIO/XPeng. In their most recent Ocean series, it seems like Dolphin and Sea Gull are filling up the lower end/small car market that they don't offer in the dynasty series. But Seal is broadly comparable to Han and Sea Lion may be comparable to Tang? It's quite possible these new models will simply confuse customers or at least displace the dynasty series.
Possible the new series might be targeted for overseas customers first before slowly replacing dynasty series in domestic market. Seems like a more "global" branding compared to chinese dynasties and they are pure ev only, while DM-i is still quite popular in china
 
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