Yeah this is what I am worried. I hope BYD does not include it in the retail packages.
New Energy Vehicles (NEVs) in China
- Thread starter supercat
- Start date
A crook owning a $200,000+ car, committing some crime serious enough to warrant getting into a high speed chase, and then having the skill to time a jump perfectly to dodge a police spike belt is such a rare situation that it is not even worth thinking about.
I just think about how you can perform little hops in Mario Kart to slide into sharp turns.
I just think about how you can perform little hops in Mario Kart to slide into sharp turns.
It's really just showing the speed and magnitude of suspension adjustment the U9 is capable of, which it needs more than traditional ICE supercars due to its weight.
PeoplesPoster
Junior Member
Not doubting that the U9 can jump with its suspension system, but that U9 video looks CG as hell. Impossible camera angles and everything.
When you are in a high speed chase with the Five-O while driving a U8 because they are rounding up Chinese to put into Internment camps. And they throw out spike strips to try and puncture your tires.
Lethe
Captain
2024 was another mixed year for Chinese vehicles in Australia. But before we get into the details, I think it is worth noting that, for the first time, there are now two Chinese brands in Australia’s top 10: MG held 7th position and GWM edged out Subaru, Tesla and Volkswagen to claim 10th position. It’s worth reflecting that, in 2019, MG and GWM collectively sold only 11k vehicles in Australia, compared to 93k in 2024. The rapid rise of Chinese brands in Australia is an remarkable success story that we should not lose sight of amidst the more mixed details.
Yet 2024 was a poor year for SAIC brands MG and LDV in particular, with both recording significant reductions in volume: MG down 13% to 50k sales (but holding 7th position) and LDV down 25% to 16k sales, dropping from 16th to 18th position in the process. These drops occurred in a broader vehicle market that was up 1.7% across 2024. MG is currently transitioning its most popular vehicles (MG3, MG ZS, MG HS) to new generations with new price points, so I think it is worth seeing how that shakes out over the course of 2025 before becoming too alarmed. LDV is a bit of a different story, with a relatively narrow lineup consisting of the T60 ute, D90 large off-road SUV, vans and, in theory, MIFA people movers, but regrettably that latter segment is very marginal in Australia. While I have not looked into the details, I suspect that LDV is losing its ute and SUV sales to offerings from GWM. Anecdotally at least, I have read a lot of accounts of people unhappy with reliability and support for their LDV vehicles.
GWM sales were up 18% to 43k, rising from 13th position to 10th in the process. The addition of Tank 300 and 500 to the local inventory has been reasonably successful, while the introduction of Cannon Alpha further strengthened the ute offering with unique dimensional characteristics (larger than HiLux/Ranger/D-Max, smaller than F150/RAM/etc.). I’m also glad to see that GWM have persisted with Ora EV despite low sales. The vehicle deserves a lot more success than it has achieved. The GWM story is not the most exciting, but the breadth of their offerings and general trajectory of improvement should provide a good basis for further success here.
Chery’s re-entry to the Australian market has been quite successful, with sales up 114% for the year to 13k, elevating the brand from 29th to 22nd position in the process. Admittedly these numbers are somewhat exaggerated given that Chery was not even here in Q1 ‘23, such that one is effectively comparing 12 months of sales in 2024 against 9 in 2023. Chery's initial Omoda 5 offering has since been joined by an EV variant and also various "Tiggo" soft SUVs. While Chery’s success is notable in its own right, I think there is some cause for concern also:
Most Chinese brands and vehicles being sold here are being sold on the basis of their superior value proposition relative to Japanese, European, American, Korean competitors. The pitch is that you get more for less. The problem is that while there is a considerable market for this pitch, it is nonetheless limited given that the most value-sensitive customers are not even looking at new vehicles in the first place. Add to this a non-trivial level of cultural-political prejudice against Chinese vehicles. My point is that this is a limited pond, and the more Chinese fish are added to it, the more they will tend to cannibalise each other, and I suspect that much of Chery’s recent success in particular is coming at the expense of both MG and GWM, rather than taking sales from e.g. Toyota or Kia. When I look at reports of the , my sense is that most of them will not survive and that most of the players that will last here are already here. The failure of a brand to thrive here is not in and of itself a problem, but my concern is that having several Chinese brands launch and fail here will tarnish the image of even those Chinese brands that do survive. The rational/pragmatic argument against buying a Chinese vehicle here is concern about depreciation and the lack of an established track record in terms of long-term reliability and the level of support customers can expect. A graveyard of Chinese vehicle brands and their orphaned owners only strengthens those arguments against buying any Chinese vehicle from a manufacturer that does not have a long-term track record here -- which is all of them.
BYD remains the most exciting story in the Australian automotive landscape and, by most measures, enjoyed another very successful year in Australia, with sales up 64% to 20k vehicles, rising from 21st position to 16th in the process. Local EVDirect talking heads wanted to double sales in 2024 (and again in 2025, and 2026….) and fell some way short of that, which is perhaps a lesson in setting realistic expectations. Sealion 6 was introduced as the brand’s first PHEV offering mid-year, and immediately became its most successful vehicle, nearly catching Seal YTD despite the six-month deficit. Dolphin is the only real sales disappointment, which can partly be attributed to strong competition from MG4 in that segment. I think there is also some commonality with headwinds facing GWM Ora: more feminine vehicle presentation in a still nascent EV market with demographics that . Still, that will (probably…) change over time and it is good for GWM and BYD to have their foot in that particular door. The imminent arrival of BYD Shark should further bolster the brand going forward and will be perhaps the most interesting vehicle story to follow in 2025. Sealion 7 is also due in the first half of 2025 to provide a direct competitor to Model Y. BYD should have a bright future in Australia, I’m just not sure it will be as incandescently bright as the proclamations from local executives suggest.
Tesla is an interesting case as all of its vehicles for the Australian market are sourced from Shanghai. As the still leading player in EVs, it must be said that Tesla had a torrid year in 2024, with sales down 17% to 38k vehicles, dropping from 8th to 12th position in the process. Difficult to see that turning around in the near-term given that Model Y update likely won’t arrive locally until H2. Tesla’s 17% decline contrasts with a 29% increase in non-Tesla EV sales, though Tesla’s dominance of the market means that translates to an overall increase in EV sales of under 5% and leaves EVs commanding only 7.4% of the market. To put a slightly different spin on things, 2024 was the first year in which Tesla commanded less than 50% market share in EVs, down to 42% from 53% last year and 59% in 2022.
Looking to the broader Australian vehicle market, Toyota continues to crush all before it, setting a new record of 241k sales, up some 25k (or “one BYD”) on 2023’s result, light years beyond Ford at #2 with 100k sales. That said, much of Toyota’s success in 2024 was catching up on the backlog of production orders from 2022-2023 (including my own) so I wouldn’t necessarily expect that trajectory to carry forward. Ford a.k.a. the Ranger and Everest company, will also be satisfied with a 14% sales increase and the nation’s best-selling vehicle. That Mazda at #3 has declined only modestly is remarkable considering the age of the brand’s volume sellers, the price of its newer vehicles, and ongoing foot-dragging in relation to hybridisation and electrification, and really speaks to the strength of the brand value that they have built up over time. Kia continues to grow at the expense of Hyundai and I’m convinced that it is destined to be the future #3 in Australia, though the unfortunate styling of its forthcoming Tasman ute (which has been "Coming Soon" what feels like forever at this point) might slow the arrival of that day somewhat. With EV5, Kia is looming as the new default choice for people who want a mainstream EV but don’t like Tesla and don’t trust BYD or other new market entrants. Mitsubishi has unexpectedly reminded everyone that it is not dead by surging to #5 in 2024 off the back of the new Triton ute and the rise of Outlander to become the nation’s second most-popular SUV. Honda stabilised its cratering sales in 2024, though at an uncomfortably low level (#20, just ahead of Chery) while BMW continued its newfound status as Australia’s leading premium brand after Mercedes-Benz switched to fixed pricing model. Jeep continues to be the laughing stock of the Australian market, with sales down a further 47% to a mere 2400 vehicles, a stunning collapse for a brand that only ten years ago was neck-and-neck with Kia. Surely it is only a matter of time before the Stellantis mothership pulls the plug. Citroen did pull the plug in Australia this year. While Citroen’s sales have long between microscopic (228 in 2023), the decision is nonetheless noteworthy and regrettable because Citroen was actually the longest-standing vehicle brand in Australia, and the C5X was rather attractive. Citroen in Australia: 1923-2024. R.I.P.
Source for most numbers cited above: .
Yet 2024 was a poor year for SAIC brands MG and LDV in particular, with both recording significant reductions in volume: MG down 13% to 50k sales (but holding 7th position) and LDV down 25% to 16k sales, dropping from 16th to 18th position in the process. These drops occurred in a broader vehicle market that was up 1.7% across 2024. MG is currently transitioning its most popular vehicles (MG3, MG ZS, MG HS) to new generations with new price points, so I think it is worth seeing how that shakes out over the course of 2025 before becoming too alarmed. LDV is a bit of a different story, with a relatively narrow lineup consisting of the T60 ute, D90 large off-road SUV, vans and, in theory, MIFA people movers, but regrettably that latter segment is very marginal in Australia. While I have not looked into the details, I suspect that LDV is losing its ute and SUV sales to offerings from GWM. Anecdotally at least, I have read a lot of accounts of people unhappy with reliability and support for their LDV vehicles.
GWM sales were up 18% to 43k, rising from 13th position to 10th in the process. The addition of Tank 300 and 500 to the local inventory has been reasonably successful, while the introduction of Cannon Alpha further strengthened the ute offering with unique dimensional characteristics (larger than HiLux/Ranger/D-Max, smaller than F150/RAM/etc.). I’m also glad to see that GWM have persisted with Ora EV despite low sales. The vehicle deserves a lot more success than it has achieved. The GWM story is not the most exciting, but the breadth of their offerings and general trajectory of improvement should provide a good basis for further success here.
Chery’s re-entry to the Australian market has been quite successful, with sales up 114% for the year to 13k, elevating the brand from 29th to 22nd position in the process. Admittedly these numbers are somewhat exaggerated given that Chery was not even here in Q1 ‘23, such that one is effectively comparing 12 months of sales in 2024 against 9 in 2023. Chery's initial Omoda 5 offering has since been joined by an EV variant and also various "Tiggo" soft SUVs. While Chery’s success is notable in its own right, I think there is some cause for concern also:
Most Chinese brands and vehicles being sold here are being sold on the basis of their superior value proposition relative to Japanese, European, American, Korean competitors. The pitch is that you get more for less. The problem is that while there is a considerable market for this pitch, it is nonetheless limited given that the most value-sensitive customers are not even looking at new vehicles in the first place. Add to this a non-trivial level of cultural-political prejudice against Chinese vehicles. My point is that this is a limited pond, and the more Chinese fish are added to it, the more they will tend to cannibalise each other, and I suspect that much of Chery’s recent success in particular is coming at the expense of both MG and GWM, rather than taking sales from e.g. Toyota or Kia. When I look at reports of the , my sense is that most of them will not survive and that most of the players that will last here are already here. The failure of a brand to thrive here is not in and of itself a problem, but my concern is that having several Chinese brands launch and fail here will tarnish the image of even those Chinese brands that do survive. The rational/pragmatic argument against buying a Chinese vehicle here is concern about depreciation and the lack of an established track record in terms of long-term reliability and the level of support customers can expect. A graveyard of Chinese vehicle brands and their orphaned owners only strengthens those arguments against buying any Chinese vehicle from a manufacturer that does not have a long-term track record here -- which is all of them.
BYD remains the most exciting story in the Australian automotive landscape and, by most measures, enjoyed another very successful year in Australia, with sales up 64% to 20k vehicles, rising from 21st position to 16th in the process. Local EVDirect talking heads wanted to double sales in 2024 (and again in 2025, and 2026….) and fell some way short of that, which is perhaps a lesson in setting realistic expectations. Sealion 6 was introduced as the brand’s first PHEV offering mid-year, and immediately became its most successful vehicle, nearly catching Seal YTD despite the six-month deficit. Dolphin is the only real sales disappointment, which can partly be attributed to strong competition from MG4 in that segment. I think there is also some commonality with headwinds facing GWM Ora: more feminine vehicle presentation in a still nascent EV market with demographics that . Still, that will (probably…) change over time and it is good for GWM and BYD to have their foot in that particular door. The imminent arrival of BYD Shark should further bolster the brand going forward and will be perhaps the most interesting vehicle story to follow in 2025. Sealion 7 is also due in the first half of 2025 to provide a direct competitor to Model Y. BYD should have a bright future in Australia, I’m just not sure it will be as incandescently bright as the proclamations from local executives suggest.
Tesla is an interesting case as all of its vehicles for the Australian market are sourced from Shanghai. As the still leading player in EVs, it must be said that Tesla had a torrid year in 2024, with sales down 17% to 38k vehicles, dropping from 8th to 12th position in the process. Difficult to see that turning around in the near-term given that Model Y update likely won’t arrive locally until H2. Tesla’s 17% decline contrasts with a 29% increase in non-Tesla EV sales, though Tesla’s dominance of the market means that translates to an overall increase in EV sales of under 5% and leaves EVs commanding only 7.4% of the market. To put a slightly different spin on things, 2024 was the first year in which Tesla commanded less than 50% market share in EVs, down to 42% from 53% last year and 59% in 2022.
Looking to the broader Australian vehicle market, Toyota continues to crush all before it, setting a new record of 241k sales, up some 25k (or “one BYD”) on 2023’s result, light years beyond Ford at #2 with 100k sales. That said, much of Toyota’s success in 2024 was catching up on the backlog of production orders from 2022-2023 (including my own) so I wouldn’t necessarily expect that trajectory to carry forward. Ford a.k.a. the Ranger and Everest company, will also be satisfied with a 14% sales increase and the nation’s best-selling vehicle. That Mazda at #3 has declined only modestly is remarkable considering the age of the brand’s volume sellers, the price of its newer vehicles, and ongoing foot-dragging in relation to hybridisation and electrification, and really speaks to the strength of the brand value that they have built up over time. Kia continues to grow at the expense of Hyundai and I’m convinced that it is destined to be the future #3 in Australia, though the unfortunate styling of its forthcoming Tasman ute (which has been "Coming Soon" what feels like forever at this point) might slow the arrival of that day somewhat. With EV5, Kia is looming as the new default choice for people who want a mainstream EV but don’t like Tesla and don’t trust BYD or other new market entrants. Mitsubishi has unexpectedly reminded everyone that it is not dead by surging to #5 in 2024 off the back of the new Triton ute and the rise of Outlander to become the nation’s second most-popular SUV. Honda stabilised its cratering sales in 2024, though at an uncomfortably low level (#20, just ahead of Chery) while BMW continued its newfound status as Australia’s leading premium brand after Mercedes-Benz switched to fixed pricing model. Jeep continues to be the laughing stock of the Australian market, with sales down a further 47% to a mere 2400 vehicles, a stunning collapse for a brand that only ten years ago was neck-and-neck with Kia. Surely it is only a matter of time before the Stellantis mothership pulls the plug. Citroen did pull the plug in Australia this year. While Citroen’s sales have long between microscopic (228 in 2023), the decision is nonetheless noteworthy and regrettable because Citroen was actually the longest-standing vehicle brand in Australia, and the C5X was rather attractive. Citroen in Australia: 1923-2024. R.I.P.
Source for most numbers cited above: .
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One should remember that these numbers don't paint a nuanced enough picture.
1. Observations on monthly sales show that whenever a maker introduces a new model, sales figures climb tremendously owing to the excitement (and modernity) of the newly introduced model. This happened with the new Mitsubishi Outlander's introduction a few years ago and the new Nissan Qashqai and X-Trail.
It is now important to note that MG has not introduced any exciting new models in their main selling models - HS and ZS, midsize and compact SUVs respectively. The new MG3 is not exciting and is barely generating sales outside of fleet sales. MG 4 and MG 5 introduction both did not yield great sales results. MG is not a good Chinese brand either and that should be considered.
2. We need to also consider how many models are on market. So if carmaker A offers 3 models in the Aussie market while carmaker B offers 10, sales volume of carmarker B being only 1.5x that of carmaker A, I would still rank carmaker A as performing significantly better. This is not a perfect way of measuring because there are so many non-comparable factors in reality but we should keep in mind that MG have 5 major model branches in the Aussie market while GWM had 2 for years and only recently introduced Ora, Tank 300 and Tank 500 to the market. GWM is therefore performing better than MG in the Aussie market especially if we factor in MG numbers including significant fleet sales.
GWM shows that Chinese brands can find relatively decent acceptable in the Aussie market, a western market that is extremely conservative and brand conscious. High end Chinese cars probably will find it hard to compete with established brands occupying similar or even greater price brackets but economical cars is where tolerance margin for Chinese cars is increased. While GWM and MG occupy the same price range, many buyers of MG actually don't know it's Chinese whereas almost everyone buying GWM knows.
Both brands have a tonne of super aged models on market where their replacement generations have long been in available elsewhere.
Polestar doesn't sell too well either compared to Tesla but I reckon Zeekr will take a huge chunk of the EV market if allowed to sell at similar prices to Chinese market. Parent company Geely owns Polestar which is premium and a difference price range. If only Avatr and Denza are brought into the Aussie market, Tesla will move from #12 to #15.
1. Observations on monthly sales show that whenever a maker introduces a new model, sales figures climb tremendously owing to the excitement (and modernity) of the newly introduced model. This happened with the new Mitsubishi Outlander's introduction a few years ago and the new Nissan Qashqai and X-Trail.
It is now important to note that MG has not introduced any exciting new models in their main selling models - HS and ZS, midsize and compact SUVs respectively. The new MG3 is not exciting and is barely generating sales outside of fleet sales. MG 4 and MG 5 introduction both did not yield great sales results. MG is not a good Chinese brand either and that should be considered.
2. We need to also consider how many models are on market. So if carmaker A offers 3 models in the Aussie market while carmaker B offers 10, sales volume of carmarker B being only 1.5x that of carmaker A, I would still rank carmaker A as performing significantly better. This is not a perfect way of measuring because there are so many non-comparable factors in reality but we should keep in mind that MG have 5 major model branches in the Aussie market while GWM had 2 for years and only recently introduced Ora, Tank 300 and Tank 500 to the market. GWM is therefore performing better than MG in the Aussie market especially if we factor in MG numbers including significant fleet sales.
GWM shows that Chinese brands can find relatively decent acceptable in the Aussie market, a western market that is extremely conservative and brand conscious. High end Chinese cars probably will find it hard to compete with established brands occupying similar or even greater price brackets but economical cars is where tolerance margin for Chinese cars is increased. While GWM and MG occupy the same price range, many buyers of MG actually don't know it's Chinese whereas almost everyone buying GWM knows.
Both brands have a tonne of super aged models on market where their replacement generations have long been in available elsewhere.
Polestar doesn't sell too well either compared to Tesla but I reckon Zeekr will take a huge chunk of the EV market if allowed to sell at similar prices to Chinese market. Parent company Geely owns Polestar which is premium and a difference price range. If only Avatr and Denza are brought into the Aussie market, Tesla will move from #12 to #15.
Lethe
Captain
There is a novelty factor but it isn't all-consuming, particularly in the context of a conservative market like Australia, at least once you get past the first six months or so. If you look at the top vehicles sold in 2024, the best-selling "new" vehicle is Mitsubishi Triton all the way down at #14. Most of the list is made up of vehicles that have been on the market in their current form for 2-5 years, with some true geriatrics like Mazda CX-3 thrown in for good measure. I think that more than simply being "new", what matters is the perception of some kind of advantage or quality differentiating it from existing offerings. Ford Ranger is certainly the beneficiary of the perception of that vehicle as more modern than Toyota HiLux, but it isn't just that it's new, but also more in tune with what more people want from that type of vehicle in 2024, i.e. a greater focus on comfort, refinement and technology, rather than being a more traditional workhorse vehicle that is the HiLux' lineage. Add extensive, pitch-perfect marketing to the mix. Speaking of, I think Toyota Australia could put fantastic ad from a few years ago on TV again and get an immediate 5% sales boost for HiLux.
I suspect that MG gains more sales in Australia from Anglo and other European folk who recognise the historical brand and don't realise that it is now part of SAIC than it loses from Chinese folk who avoid it because it is not a significant or well-regarded player in China's domestic market. I think you are too down on MG4: it was the best-selling non-Tesla EV here in 2024 (just ahead of BYD Seal), just as it was in 2023. It's doing about as well as one could expect, I think.
I take the general principle onboard, though I'm not sure exactly how you are dividing up the market. I think there is a reasonable chance that GWM will displace MG as the leading Chinese brand in Australia at some point but, as things stand today, I would argue that GWM has a broader inventory than MG and is achieving fewer sales with it. I'm guessing that one of the differences between our perceptions is that you are considering cars as distinct from (soft) SUVs, which I don't think is particularly meaningful, at least in Australia where soft SUVs have largely displaced cars as the standard consumer vehicle (that MG ZS EV sales cratered when MG4 arrived on the scene also points to these being largely interchangeable categories). Having a ute in the inventory (GWM) is more important than having small and medium passenger cars (MG). Relatedly, MG is now planning to .
Lots of that Leopard 5 will eventually make its way to Australia as Denza B5, though I think it is a mistake to dilute brand recognition by putting anything other than a BYD badge on it, particularly given that Shark is going under the BYD umbrella.
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breakthrough for BYD in Turkish market
XPeng & VW claim to have built China's largest fast charging network so far with 20000 charge points.