New Cold War???

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Well on the issue of demographics, you are right. But remember this: the "authoritarian" (you say authoritarian, but really just the third world/the worlds poorer nations) are still very poor, have terrible education systems, etc. etc. And really the only ones with favorable foreign reserves are Iran, China and Russia. These countries have problems all their own. I mean look at China. They should consider themselves lucky if buildings don't melt everytime it rains in 2012.

Also I don't think that it is appropriate to think of the world's poor undemocratic nations as a unified bloc, opposed to a unified bloc of rich democratic nations.
 

Raptoreyes

New Member
Well on the issue of demographics, you are right.

Thank you Finn McCool for acknowledging that fact. How we agree is as important as how we differ.

But remember this: the "authoritarian" (you say authoritarian, but really just the third world/the worlds poorer nations) are still very poor, have terrible education systems, etc. etc. And really the only ones with favorable foreign reserves are Iran, China and Russia. These countries have problems all their own. I mean look at China. They should consider themselves lucky if buildings don't melt everytime it rains in 2012.

I'm glad quotes like this can still make me laugh in such a dark times as these. It is my hope that China's ecological nightmare, will keep its organs of state security, the Politburo, and its military at least partially engaged, in pursuit that cannot damage the freedom of its neighbors. It would be reassuring at the very least to know that nations like Taiwan and South Korea might remain safe for democracy, during this perilous time, if for no other reason than the Chinese Politburo has environmental concerns within its territory the sort most of the Chinese government's attention.

As for the words and definitions I choose to use when describing China, I've given it lots of thought and I consider them to be the most accurate given the circumstances. I will provide dictionary links for the sake of intellectual clarity.

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When I referred to the current political structure of China as authoritarian, one must be particularly mindful of the limitations under which the Chinese government practices its continuing authoritarianism. I have no doubt that the Chinese government would love to be more authoritarian than it is, and under a wider range of circumstances. In the mind of most of the more hardline Chinese leaders, this strictly economic liberalization is nothing more then a way to help preserve an authoritarian set of social and political policies.

While China limits its authoritarianism in the social sphere, it does so only because minutely policing the actions of every dissident great and small, the way it happened in Fascist Italy or Germany would be cost prohibitive, under the giant population numbers inside Chinese territory. This selective enforcement should not be construed as a lack of desire on the part of the Chinese leadership to maintain an authoritarian order, for as long as possible. The massive population numbers in China however tend to limit the expression of these authoritarian impulses and make China look more liberalized than it actually is. I would caution all my readers, not to confuse the lack of ability of Chinese politicians to become totalitarian with an actual desire to thoroughly liberalized their society. Under these conditions calling the Chinese political structure [bold]authoritarian[/bold] is perfectly correct despite their inability to fully realize their desires. The Chinese leadership is fine with becoming rich so long as nobody in their country holds the opinion which may feel he is against their wishes.

Contrast China's political development with say another former Third World country like Thailand, or India in the early 90s. In the cases of India and Thailand, economic and political liberties have shown a tendency to grow together, which is a great indication, that the politicians in these countries were genuine in their intentions.

Third world politics may lack all of the wondrous checks and balances of Western democracies. However the desire of the Chinese elites, to liberalize only to the minimum extent that reality forces upon them, is painfully evident next to the achievements of any third world government that has been more wholehearted in its desire to change.

A point of clarity is worth considering however in the word authoritarian. The recent attempts by the Bush administration to apply authoritarian principles to the president's ability to identify enemies/fight terrorism, has muddied the waters somewhat as to what authoritarian means. However a failed wartime attempt to slip away from constitutional boundaries on the part of the US president's office (over the eventual objections of the citizenry, legislature, Supreme Court and bureaucracy) is a far cry less potent than the authoritarianism that pervades nearly all the branches of the Chinese government. Of course as a point of additional differentiation, the Chinese people have almost absolutely no say in this at all, which is another major difference. Nonetheless we can take recent events the United States as a cautionary tale on just how fast open societies can become closed, if the necessary objections are not clearly put forward before an authoritarian (cleverly camouflaged as a public safety initiative)order can fully establish itself.

Also I don't think that it is appropriate to think of the world's poor undemocratic nations as a unified bloc, opposed to a unified bloc of rich democratic nations.

To the extent that the world's poor undemocratic nations are oil exporters they do often operate as a political blocs under the auspices of OPEC. We all remember well, during the 70s when OPEC managed to bring the world markets to a state of panic simply via the credible threat of an embargo. Fortunately for the baby boom generation of the 70s the embargo never fully materialized, mainly due to the fact that Saudi Arabia and Libya did not wholeheartedly comply with the OPEC policies, that its member nations agreed to.

This time around, the oil shortages are real instead of a statistical misrepresentation by groups such as the Club of Rome. This time the number of nations with significant oil exporting capability is much smaller than it used to be, at a time when India and China now have economies that now will actually use the lion's share of future world reserves.

While I have come to disagree with current (Bush administration) US foreign policy, the fact remains that such policies are vulnerable to generalized Third World disorder. If North Korea for example takes advantage of the United States over the extended military situation in Iraq, to cause trouble in its neighborhood, the fact that there is, no direct collusion between the Iraqi insurgents and the North Koreans does not mean that the effect isn't the same as if the collusion had taken place. One of the reasons I push for a drastic reduction of commitments overseas is in part to fight America's debt on a good footing, and in part an acknowledgment that America no longer has the ability to fight multiple conflicts at the same time with the necessary maximum efficiency.
 
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crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
New cold war is rather strong a term. As we enter the next decade, I find certain terms to be helpful in describing the new order that is about to come.

1. The Frenemy. Basically the Frenemy is someone who is both friend and enemy. More and more foreign policies will be shaped along these lines. China is practically the dominant frenemy to the US, Japan, Taiwan, India and even to Russia. Europe is increasingly become a frenemy to the US, and Russia, a frenemy to Europe.

2. The Currency Wars. The falling dollar will have a fundamental impact in changing the economic paradigm of the new order. What has been a dollar dominated global economy will become a three way race between the Renminbi, the Japanese Yen and the Eurodollar.

3. The Energy Wars. While the US is myopically tied to the "War against Terror", Iraq and Islamic fundamentalism, a war of deft and skillful political maneuver is happening between Russia, China and the EU in the securing of the world's energy supplies, not just oil but also natural gas and uranium. Third world nations, Africa and South America will be the battlegrounds.

4. The rise of the Neo-Comm movements. If you have your Neo-Cons, the Neo-Comms stand in opposite. There are two kinds of Neo-Comms. The first is the Russian Neo-Comm. These seek to return Russia back to the super power it once was, and seek to unite former soviet republics back into the fold either by border or soft power. The second is the Chinese Neo-Comm. These believe China's right and ascension as a super power is part of her manifest destiny, and views the West in a xenophobic lens as conspirationally trying to isolate and even dismember China. The Tibetan riots is the 911 triggerpoint that may incinerate China's young generation into the Neo-Comm movement.

5. The rise of "Pragmatism" as an alternative ideology. The old ideologues of right and left that still dominate many nations today will be outmaneuvered by a new generation and rising breed of politicians that would consider themselves "pragmatic" or centrist and operate without the shackles of left wing or right wing ideology. Rather than look to the US, they look to China as the "model" of development and deft diplomacy. Rather than see democracy or authoritianism as an end, they see both as tools and they would skillfully use both as a means of direct economic and political gain.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I personally think that the EU and the US have come closer together in recent years.

I'm not really sure about that, certainly not as close anymore compared to the Cold War NATO days. The lightning rod has been Iraq, and the majority of European sentiment do not support the invasion nor do they like the Bush administration and its policies. Europe is certainly is in ideological odds with the US Republican party and its beliefs, such as the approach to social health care and welfare. US conservatives on the other hand, take particularly negative views on Europe especially with France. Europe collectively will pursue a uniquely different vision or formula of what the modern or westernized world is supposed to be, as opposed to the US/Republican vision.
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
I'm not really sure about that, certainly not as close anymore compared to the Cold War NATO days. The lightning rod has been Iraq, and the majority of European sentiment do not support the invasion nor do they like the Bush administration and its policies. Europe is certainly is in ideological odds with the US Republican party and its beliefs, such as the approach to social health care and welfare. US conservatives on the other hand, take particularly negative views on Europe especially with France. Europe collectively will pursue a uniquely different vision or formula of what the modern or westernized world is supposed to be, as opposed to the US/Republican vision.

Well Europe and the US have never been very much alike in domestic politics. Of course the Europeans don't like Bush but neither do the vast majority of Americans-some of them disliked him from the beginning (me included). He's on his way out too. I don't think that the US and Europe ever pursued a united vision of what the world should be; we are allies because we are so similar and because our interests so often coincide. I think the fact that US and EU troops are fighting together in Afghanistan testifies to the strength of the alliance. The EU is growing more and more anxious about Russia's resurgence. That's an example of a force that will push us together.

Really I think that the Bush Administration period was an abberation in American foreign policy towards Europe. Across the political spectrum no one really advocates continuing the course they have followed and his policies are almost universally hated. So I personally believe future presidents will value the relationship with Europe and NATO much more highly.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Well Europe and the US have never been very much alike in domestic politics. Of course the Europeans don't like Bush but neither do the vast majority of Americans-some of them disliked him from the beginning (me included). He's on his way out too. I don't think that the US and Europe ever pursued a united vision of what the world should be; we are allies because we are so similar and because our interests so often coincide. I think the fact that US and EU troops are fighting together in Afghanistan testifies to the strength of the alliance. The EU is growing more and more anxious about Russia's resurgence. That's an example of a force that will push us together.

Really I think that the Bush Administration period was an abberation in American foreign policy towards Europe. Across the political spectrum no one really advocates continuing the course they have followed and his policies are almost universally hated. So I personally believe future presidents will value the relationship with Europe and NATO much more highly.

From the perspective of a international relations scholar, I would argue that 2002-2003 transatlantic crisis was fairly inevitable because of the build up of misunderstandings, miscommunication, and assumptions made by both the US and the European NATO allies about the direction they were heading. . The European allies in NATO thought that neo-conservatism radicalism in foreign policy was not a possibility due to the 2000 US Presidential campaign, where there was no hint of neo-conservatism in foreign policy, let alone talk of foreign policy at all during the campaign. Furthermore, the European allies thought that George W. Bush was carved out of the same ideological mould as his father who was pragmatic and had considerable finesse in foreign policy, especially with the issue of German reunification and the end of the Cold War. This was not the case.

I would also argued that , Europe as a whole misjudged how the 9/11 attacks affected the psyche of the United States. For some Europeans, it appeared that neo-conservatism had hijacked the Bush administration’s foreign policy in the wake of 9/11, through deft maneuvering and appeals to nationalism. It only became apparent to the Europeans in late 2002 that there was a shift in US policy from being a guardian of the peace and stability, to that of a potentially destabilizing nation; something that is not expected out of friends and allies. The Americans however, saw themselves as vulnerable, as the 9/11 attacks were the first attacks on the United States of this significant magnitude and damage since the War of 1812. They saw themselves as being under mortal threat and any deviations or concerns that the European allies had about how the United States conducted itself was irrelevant, and even more disappointingly, ingratitude for the decades during the Cold War where the United States protected Europe from the Soviet hordes so that Europe would not have to worry about the threat.

It just so happened that lead up and start to the 2003 Iraq War was the immediate cause for the flare up in the dispute between the United States and Europe. The main reason for the flare up is that American do-it-alone, unilateral policy towards Iraq angered the Europeans as the Europeans expected that they would be consulted and a multilateral decision would be made. This caused the Europeans to react in such a way that angered the Americans, which caused the fall out between Europe and the United States during the 2002-2003 Atlantic crisis. Furthermore, American actions, had an alienating effect on Europeans, which widened the gulf in relations as the Europe, and America had differing views on issues, most importantly regarding Iraq. The United States saw Iraq as a clear and present danger to the security of the United States and to world peace; Europe saw no danger from Iraq as long as Saddam Hussein was contained, which was already the case. Europe for the most part was not convinced by the vague arguments and “proof” given by the United States as a reason to go to war in the first place. Other causes, such as the issue of Israel and the International Criminal Court were essentially side wars as part of the main conflict, which was over the case of Iraq.

One of the most important things to note is how quickly a dispute can degenerate into ad hominem and personal attacks. I will point out the relationship between then German Chancellor Gerhard Schröder and his government during the German Federal elections in 2002 as an example. There, Schröder, pandered to anti-American sentiments and feelings by openly declaring a clear opposition to a war on Iraq, even if the war did have international approval, which was an inconsistent position for the German government to take as Germany has always supported similar missions that did have international approval. This angered the American administration and led to a very frosty relationship between Germany and the United States that culminated in multiple snubs of German government politicians, including Schröder himself by the US administration in the immediate aftermath of the 2002 elections, as the Americans felt betrayed by Schröder’s position. Even worst was the acrimonious relationship between French President Jacques Chirac and the US administration. Even though Schröder finally did tone down his rhetoric, It is also of note that French took up the slack and pushed out more anti-American rhetoric that angered the American administration, and left other European states scrambling to shore up their relationship with the United States less the political damage from the split spill over into their own states.
 

Schumacher

Senior Member
How will a future 'cold war' look like ? Anyone studying this subject can do a nice thesis based on the current Olympic torch relay.
Look at how it's received in each of it's stops.
So far, it was welcomed in Kazakhstan, Russia, Turkey, Argentina & resisted in France, UK & US.
Will be interesting to see what follows. I've always said the issues at the root of the protests are much bigger than what the protesters' realize.
We all live in interesting times.
 

Scratch

Captain
I believe the future of US - EU relationship also depends a lot on the relation of the EU member states between each other. The EU (consisting of 27 countries) is not as homogeneous as the name implies, perhaps not by far.
Esp during the time when the US-Europ "split-up" was on it's apex, some eastern europe states felt endangered by the close relationship of the big euro countries and their [the eastern europe states] former master Russia. Hence they sought to strengthen their position against them partly by pursuing closer ties with the US. Wich led to some irritations inside the EU itself.
That has relaxed somewhat in recent times. Europe and the US have realised that they need each other more than they thought.
With new governmants in France and Germany moving again slightly towards the US, a more coop willing US administration and more EU firendly governments in eastern Europe, cooperation has become easier.
However, discrepancy (inside Europe) remains, as the latest NATO summit showed. Merkel prevented a quick membership of Georgia and the Ukraine, wich was favoured by the US and esp eastern europe countries, in order to not endanger the stressed relationship with Russia. (On the other hand, opposition to the missile defence shield vanishes.) Part of the rationale is also the energy "Cooperation" with Russia Schröder led us into. While we get along quiet nice with it so far (despite growing dependency some don't want to see) again the smaller eastern Europe states have deeper concerns. I think the estonian defence minister said something like Russia used is energy supply monoply 41 times in 2007 to make political pressure. Those countries want to expand NATO's coop to the energy arena.

And then, finally; there's the aim of big Euros to make the EU ascent beyond the junior partner status of the US and become an equal player / "rival US supremacy". Pursuing that goal, holds the risk of displease the US, wich I think some (again eastern) europe states and of course the Brits are not willing to take. Especially since succes is not certain.

On the bigger scale, US and EU interests seem still to be those that will coincide most often and most easily.
Russia is on the rise again and wants to reassert it's influence in the region. And China is becoming a global player. Somehow I wonder what will happen if currently cheap goods imported from China on a big scale will become a lot more expensive, and high tech exports will decline because China can manufacure those herself. Might change global economic order again.
And regarding that new cold war thing, the world is much more interconnected today then it was two decades ago when trade between the two blocks was nearly non-existing and the I-Net just slowly emerged. I don't believe that can be inverted.
The new cold war would involve complete new dimensions.
 
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