Naval Helicopter thread

[Blitzo]

there are many weaknesses, but the ultimate one is that they just don't have enough naval helos. That's why Z-15 project and the 10 ton helo projects are so important right now.

Tphuang, I notice you keep mention this 10 tonne helicopter, what do you think it will be like, similar to the NH-90 or... a downsized merlin?

Why is China pursuing two transport helicopter programmes at the same time, and is the 10 tonne one a completely indigenous venture (save for maybe the engines)?

 

[tphuang]

No, it uses the same five bladed rotor system from the latest iteration of the Super Puma, the EC-225, and a gearbox derived from that helo. The engines may or may not be derivatives of the PT-6, depending on which source you wish to believe.

it used certain Western components, but it's still an indigenous design. That would be like saying Gripen is not an indigenous effort.

Gearbox was definitely imported for a while there, although they are producing it domestically now.

As for engine, it's not "which source you wish to believe", we know it's using WZ-9, which is completely different from PT-6.

The ultimate problem is their engine department. It always come back down to engines.

that's a common myth, when they couldn't produce enough Z-8, it wasn't just due to engines, they had a lot of weak links in the supply chain. If you look at a simpler helicopter like Z-9, they have not had the same problem recently. This industry in China is just not very developed, that's the big problem. They are doing a 50-50 venture for Z-15, but even the Chinese side admits that they are actually developing less than 50%.

 

[tphuang]

Tphuang, I notice you keep mention this 10 tonne helicopter, what do you think it will be like, similar to the NH-90 or... a downsized merlin?

Why is China pursuing two transport helicopter programmes at the same time, and is the 10 tonne one a completely indigenous venture (save for maybe the engines)?

They are actually pursuing at least 1 more. Their co-development project with Russia based on Mi-46 is probably the true heavy transport they are looking for. Z-15 really is in a very common weight class. It can be adopted for many roles. They can for example use it for smaller ships. The 10 tonne helicopters could become like Chinese equivalent of Seahawks. On Chinese side, they were saying that their goal is to develop something that is ahead of blackhawks (PLA still loves their S-70s), but it could turn out to look a lot like S-92. They've basically already turned S-300 into their unmanned helicopter.

 

[Ambivalent]

AVIC II and Eurocopter have been working on a common drive system and rotor head for a number of years. This is well publicized in the helicopter industry. Why does this surprise you so? Eurocopter and before that Aerospatiale have been sharing their designs with China for decades. This is nothing new. That big Z-8 is just a Super Frelon, and it owes it's rotor head design to the Sikorsky CH-53/CH-54. That, too, is well documented.

 

[tphuang]

AVIC II and Eurocopter have been working on a common drive system and rotor head for a number of years. This is well publicized in the helicopter industry. Why does this surprise you so? Eurocopter and before that Aerospatiale have been sharing their designs with China for decades. This is nothing new. That big Z-8 is just a Super Frelon, and it owes it's rotor head design to the Sikorsky CH-53/CH-54. That, too, is well documented.

So, just because AVIC-II uses drive system and rotor head that it worked on with Eurocopter, that means Z-10 is not an indigenous effort?

And nobody is doubting that Z-8 is a Chinese produced Super Frelon.

 

[Engineer]

that's a common myth, when they couldn't produce enough Z-8, it wasn't just due to engines, they had a lot of weak links in the supply chain. If you look at a simpler helicopter like Z-9, they have not had the same problem recently. This industry in China is just not very developed, that's the big problem. They are doing a 50-50 venture for Z-15, but even the Chinese side admits that they are actually developing less than 50%.

So what turboshaft engines are available to China now, and is there any new turboshaft engine becoming available in the next few years?

 

[Schumacher]

AVIC II and Eurocopter have been working on a common drive system and rotor head for a number of years. This is well publicized in the helicopter industry. Why does this surprise you so? Eurocopter and before that Aerospatiale have been sharing their designs with China for decades. This is nothing new. That big Z-8 is just a Super Frelon, and it owes it's rotor head design to the Sikorsky CH-53/CH-54. That, too, is well documented.

Many big engineering projects have all kinds joint ventures these days so it's quite meaningless to say it's not indigenous because there're some joint venture works.
Just like Boeing 787 with its joint ventures with foreign partners, it wouldn't be considered an indigenous as well if that's the case.

 

[Engineer]

Many big engineering projects have all kinds joint ventures these days so it's quite meaningless to say it's not indigenous because there're some joint venture works.
Just like Boeing 787 with its joint ventures with foreign partners, it wouldn't be considered an indigenous as well if that's the case.

I would say it depends on how much percentage of components, by mass, is designed in China. For example, that excuse for a regional jet -- ARJ21, shouldn't be qualified as indigenous.

 

[Schumacher]

I would say it depends on how much percentage of components, by mass, is designed in China. For example, that excuse for a regional jet -- ARJ21, shouldn't be qualified as indigenous.

That's true. For example, with 787, you have entire sections of the fuselage made in another country.
I was referring more to the case when someone point to something as general as 5 blades rotor. Just like pointing to different models of cars all having 4 wheels.
It's more of an indication to claim credit when none is due or to discredit than an indication of any knowledge involved in design of aircraft.

 

[tphuang]

So what turboshaft engines are available to China now, and is there any new turboshaft engine becoming available in the next few years?

WZ-9 and WZ-10 are the major ones. There is no question that turboshaft engine technology in China is still very weak, but I think they can also always get the engine they need from the Russians.