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sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
China still has zero reusable launch vehicle and does not have any equivalent engine to the Raptor.
China have more powerful Rocket Engines than Raptor like YF-130/YF-215 from National space agency. all these rocket engines successfully completed multiple fire test.. the problem is, they don't have designated rockets for these engines yet. so you don't see serial production.

YF-130 is 500t class heavy rocket engine.

Landspace 200t level FFSC Methane-Lox BF-20 Engine completed technical design last year. they have finished upgrading the test bed last week.. first full scale fire test coming soon.

there are two more Raptor class Engines coming from private companies.
 

iewgnem

Senior Member
Registered Member
That again mostly comes down to good project management. LM-10 is not technologically advanced as it was specifically meant to be a fast and safe option. Also, as LM-10 has yet to flown I think you are getting a bit ahead don't you think? What are you even trying to agrue, that somehow Chinese launch vehicles are more advanced technologically? That just ain't true.
Good project management is the understanding if you spend all your money on one part of the project, you'll end up arguing on the internet about how advanced your rocket is while the other guy walks on the moon.

LM-10 hasn't flown yet, no, and Starship hasn't made orbit yet neither, shall we discuss Falcon 9 vs Long March 5 on purely technical basis?
 

Tomboy

Senior Member
Registered Member
China havew powerful Rocket Engines than Raptor like YF-130/YF-215 from National space agency. all these rocket engines successfully completed multiple fire test.. the problem is, they don't have designated rockets for these engines yet. so you don't see serial production.. YF-130 is 500t class heavy rocket engine.

Landspace 200t level FFSC Methane-Lox BF-20 Engine completed technical design last year. they have finished upgrading the test bed last week.. first full scale fire test coming soon.
Anyways point still stand that current in service American launch vehicle is more advanced. Also it's unfair to compare YF-130 to the Raptor as the former is a dual nozzle engine sharing a single turbopump, completely different class of engines. More thrust alone does not automatically mean more advanced, Raptor is the first flight flown full flow staged combustion cycle engine with ridiculously high TWR ratio.

Anyhow equivalent engines to the Raptor on the Chinese side are either still on paper or in early prototype testing.
LM-10 hasn't flown yet, no, and Starship hasn't made orbit yet neither, shall we discuss Falcon 9 vs Long March 5 on purely technical basis?
Sure, I really want to see how LM-5 is more advanced. F9 is partially reusable, has higher payload fraction even when reusable and has higher cumulative success rate. Also, I'm pretty sure F9 launch costs are also lower although i don't think there are any public info on LM-5 launch cost.
 

sunnymaxi

Major
Registered Member
Anyways point still stand that current in service American launch vehicle is more advanced. Also it's unfair to compare YF-130 to the Raptor as the former is a dual nozzle engine sharing a single turbopump, completely different class of engines. More thrust alone does not automatically mean more advanced, Raptor is the first flight flown full flow staged combustion cycle engine with ridiculously high TWR ratio.

Anyhow equivalent engines to the Raptor on the Chinese side are either still on paper or in early prototype testing.
no one denying. SpaceX is way ahead. but some people thinks, China will forever stuck with these tiny rockets. LOOL

just visit semi thread, Next year 5nm line coming online with all Non-American tools.. we have done this just in 5 years. semiconductor tools is way way more complex and precise than these rockets.

give us only 2 years.. i know pretty well, what's happening on the ground. China's rocket industry is in transitional phase, from tiny rockets to heavy duty rockets. multiple heavy duty launchers coming online in next 18-24 months.
 

iewgnem

Senior Member
Registered Member
Anyways point still stand that current in service American launch vehicle is more advanced. Also it's unfair to compare YF-130 to the Raptor as the former is a dual nozzle engine sharing a single turbopump, completely different class of engines. More thrust alone does not automatically mean more advanced, Raptor is the first flight flown full flow staged combustion cycle engine with ridiculously high TWR ratio.

Anyhow equivalent engines to the Raptor on the Chinese side are either still on paper or in early prototype testing.

Sure, I really want to see how LM-5 is more advanced. F9 is partially reusable, has higher payload fraction even when reusable and has higher cumulative success rate. Also, I'm pretty sure F9 launch costs are also lower although i don't think there are any public info on LM-5 launch cost.
US to date does not have any equivalent engine planned or built that can match Soviet RD-270 single chamber 600 ton full flow staged combustion, do you consider the 1965 Soviet Union to be more advanced than either US at that time or today? More thrust certainly doesn't mean more advanced, being able to do missions no other engine or rocket can do make something more advanced.

Maximizing singular metric at the expense of another, e.g. Falcon maximizing payload fraction while running gas generator Merlin, or Starship maximizing staged combustion at expense atrocious payload fraction with steel hull, these are decisions for people who can't afford the program but has to build something, people who can afford the program only cares about the program, because it's never optimal to maximize one or another.

Speaking of which, to date has Falcon demonstrated the ability to launch any payload in mass or volume that even approach each CSS segment launched by LM5B? Has either Falcon 9 or Heavy launched any mission that's equivalent to either CE-5 or 6 or Tianwen-1 in mass and delta-V? Falcons with it's gas generator RP1 engines is technologically incapable of launching any mission LM-5 can launch. That's all that need to be said on the technical.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anyways point still stand that current in service American launch vehicle is more advanced. Also it's unfair to compare YF-130 to the Raptor as the former is a dual nozzle engine sharing a single turbopump, completely different class of engines. More thrust alone does not automatically mean more advanced, Raptor is the first flight flown full flow staged combustion cycle engine with ridiculously high TWR ratio.
SpaceX's Raptor engine has a very high thrust-to-weight ratio on paper, but in practical use, a specialized blast isolation shield has been added for the engine. The additional weight far exceeds the weight that was reduced.

Why is the Raptor engine equipped with a blast isolation shield? Can it really operate stably and reliably? During yesterday's 10th flight, one of the first stage's Raptor engines failed again. The explosion at the tail end during the second stage's flight fortunately didn’t affect the engine, precisely because the engine was protected by the blast isolation shield.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Anyhow equivalent engines to the Raptor on the Chinese side are either still on paper or in early prototype testing.

Sure, I really want to see how LM-5 is more advanced. F9 is partially reusable, has higher payload fraction even when reusable and has higher cumulative success rate. Also, I'm pretty sure F9 launch costs are also lower although i don't think there are any public info on LM-5 launch cost.
To be honest, the United States mainly has an advantage in existing assets. In this regard, China still needs about ten years to catch up and address many shortcomings, primarily in heavy-lift rockets.

However, frankly speaking, it’s hard to see how much technological advantage the U.S. still holds in the aerospace sector. It’s not felt anymore. In many micro-level details, the presence of U.S. technological innovation in aerospace is no longer perceptible.

To be honest, including SpaceX, I really don’t think they are leading. I just feel regret for U.S. aerospace.
SpaceX has completely led the U.S. aerospace industry astray with misguided and inefficient technological approaches. Of course, the same goes for Boeing and the ULA launch alliance.
Falcon 9 is acceptable, but the Falcon Heavy is mostly忽悠外行 (deceiving laymen), and the Starship is basically胡来 (reckless).

When strategic concepts and direction are wrong, no amount of tactical-level achievements can make up for it. The Starship is precisely such an existence.

The public now thinks the Starship is advanced because it excels in singular metrics (specifically two: maximum lift-off mass and thrust), along with the imagined low cost of full reusability.
The current design and operational thinking behind the Starship are charging full speed down the wrong path (it’s not that reusability is wrong—it’s that they’ve completely messed up the sequence of technological development).
Right now, the Starship has no competitors in its class, so not many people recognize its problems.
But once the Long March 9, a rocket in the same class, completes its maiden flight, you will hear U.S. aerospace professionals come forward and angrily condemn SpaceX for squandering its technological advantage.
Elon Musk’s collusion with the CCP has harmed the development of U.S. aerospace.

Finally, if SpaceX adjusts its strategy, I will retract the above conclusions. However, there is currently no sign of such adjustments.

Right now, I am almost certain that in ten years, facing Chinese aerospace, the U.S. aerospace sector will basically lose (mainly because if the U.S. had taken the correct path, it could have maintained its technological advantage until 2045, but now, with the wrong path, the U.S. technological advantage will largely disappear by 2035). Congress, NASA, SpaceX, and Elon Musk must all bear responsibility for this.
 

nativechicken

Junior Member
Registered Member
Sure, I really want to see how LM-5 is more advanced. F9 is partially reusable, has higher payload fraction even when reusable and has higher cumulative success rate. Also, I'm pretty sure F9 launch costs are also lower although i don't think there are any public info on LM-5 launch cost.
The Long March 5's LEO (Low Earth Orbit) capacity exceeds that of the Falcon 9 in its expendable configuration. Its GTO (Geostationary Transfer Orbit) capacity completely outclasses the Falcon 9. The Falcon Heavy's Jupiter's orbit capacity surpasses that of the Long March 5 by approximately one-fifth. The advantage of the Falcon 9 lies in its reusability, which indeed reduces its launch cost to about half that of the Long March 5. When launching satellites to GTO, its pricing is similar to that of the Long March 3B.

In terms of reusable launches at the Falcon 9 level, SpaceX does not hold a significant technological or pricing advantage. This is primarily due to long-standing market protection policies in the United States.

Chinese commercial aerospace companies are developing rockets comparable to the Falcon 9 level, targeting a post-reuse launch price of approximately $20-25 million (the cost per launch for a reused rocket is around $10-15 million). If China were able to enter the global satellite launch market (which is currently blocked by the U.S.—any satellite containing U.S. components cannot be launched on a Chinese rocket), SpaceX would be 100% finished.
 
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