The issue is that no one suffers enough from piracy (or the Somalia problem in general) to make an actual eradication of pirates (or fixing Somalia) worth it in terms of cost-benefit.
Modern Piracy on the High Seas
- Thread starter Lion
- Start date
bladerunner
Banned Idiot
Apart from the probability the pirates might up the money from time to time, why dont we just pay them off to behave themselves, meanwhile ensuring fishing became a viable livlihood again a.......... tourist destination a Club Med perhaps?
lcloo
Captain
I suspect that most nations actually take the Somali piracy as convinience to horn their battle operation skills, as a training ground in real life scenario, check out other navies' ships acoustic signatures, electronic signatures, operation procedures etc.
It is a good place to check out each other in a friendly atmosphere, it can also built up communication and joint action protocols between different navies.
May be that's why they have no desire to completely wipe the pirates.
It is a good place to check out each other in a friendly atmosphere, it can also built up communication and joint action protocols between different navies.
May be that's why they have no desire to completely wipe the pirates.
Ambivalent
Junior Member
Shades of the tribute paid to the Tripolitan pirates. It didn't work so well back then, the price rose every year. At some point the price is always to high and nations resort to naval force to protect their shipping rather than get bent over by pirates.
Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
I prefer multiple solutions to deal with Somalia.
1. For Somalians who are violently protesting against foreign fishermen overfishing Somalian waters and foreign ships dumping waste around Somalia's coast: The US, Europe, China, and other major nations should tell Somalian protesters how to act like respectable coast guards (which is arrest or identify violators of international law, and work with foreign nations to bring justice to violators). Tell Somalian protesters if they continue to act like thugs, powerful foreign navies and merchants will treat them like thugs (i.e., slaughter).
2. To Somalians with no regard for international law: The US, Europe, China, and other major nations should give them a full range of warnings, and a clear punishment for violating each warning. The most severe punishment is aggressive patrols.
Aggressive patrols: Create affordable ships that can patrol Somalia for a long time. Arm the fleet with only a few helicopters, missiles, and torpedoes to deal with serious threats (i.e., mother ships). Typically, put assault teams and snipers on the patrol ships, and tell snipers to practice their long-range art on the pirates. Turn the bodies into fish food and confiscate the ships for recycling.
3. If the Somalians want money or assistance, they need to give something back in return. I am fine with bribes, as long as the deals are fair and obeyed.
4. Somalian ships have to identify themselves with technology or flags. Somalian patrols need clear identification and work professionally with other navies. All misbehaving Somalian ships will be used for sniper practice.
1. For Somalians who are violently protesting against foreign fishermen overfishing Somalian waters and foreign ships dumping waste around Somalia's coast: The US, Europe, China, and other major nations should tell Somalian protesters how to act like respectable coast guards (which is arrest or identify violators of international law, and work with foreign nations to bring justice to violators). Tell Somalian protesters if they continue to act like thugs, powerful foreign navies and merchants will treat them like thugs (i.e., slaughter).
2. To Somalians with no regard for international law: The US, Europe, China, and other major nations should give them a full range of warnings, and a clear punishment for violating each warning. The most severe punishment is aggressive patrols.
Aggressive patrols: Create affordable ships that can patrol Somalia for a long time. Arm the fleet with only a few helicopters, missiles, and torpedoes to deal with serious threats (i.e., mother ships). Typically, put assault teams and snipers on the patrol ships, and tell snipers to practice their long-range art on the pirates. Turn the bodies into fish food and confiscate the ships for recycling.
3. If the Somalians want money or assistance, they need to give something back in return. I am fine with bribes, as long as the deals are fair and obeyed.
4. Somalian ships have to identify themselves with technology or flags. Somalian patrols need clear identification and work professionally with other navies. All misbehaving Somalian ships will be used for sniper practice.
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
if you have nothing intelligent to offer then keep it to yourself.
for someone who prolly couldn't really survive for two days under this so called "law of the wild" you sure talk pretty loud. maybe you should go look at the financial and political conditions of the somali government, then look at their navy. this is a country where even if you give them the ships and missiles, they wont be able to manage and maintain them. i know there are rules regarding how we comment in this forum, but i gotta say this because it is the truth, your comment is just ignorant. go take a international relations course.
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Infra_Man99
Banned Idiot
Hijacking private property and kidnapping people are NOT ACCEPTABLE BEHAVIOR. You're fine with people using violence and intimidation to steal and persuade people. You care about the livelihood of criminals and you ignore the suffering of innocent, hardworking people and the repercussions of private property being kidnapped or stolen, intimidated, held for ransom, and used without pay.
I'm not fine with this at all. Your moral compass needs major calibration or a complete overhaul. I'm glad people like you are not in control of any major military or in influential post.
I am HAPPY to hear news about the US Navy, Chinese Navy, and other world navies using superior force upon the Somali criminals. I am GLAD the US military is roughing up Somali criminals with US personnel, US equipment, US-supplied proxies, and US-trained proxies.
I HOPE and WISH the US military will bring back the leathernecks to deal with piracy. Read some glorious history of how US appeasement encouraged piracy but the unchained fury of US leathernecks and military technology ended piracy:
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If Somalia has problems with international fishermen and European nations dumping waste near them, then Somalia needs to develop intelligent solutions. Somalians also needs to stop blaming other people for Somalians' problems. Somalians need to accept the fact that their piracy is mostly due to their lawlessness. Somalians treat each other like crap and they treat other people like crap. Until Somalians act like respectable people to themselves and to others, they will always be an uncivilized region.
When the US, China, and other nations negotiate with Somalia, nothing happens except the former half losing people, private property, and ransom to the latter half. When the former half sends superior force, suddenly Somalian piracy declines. This is nothing new.
Piracy has existed for thousands of years all over the world. When the Chinese dynasties appeased pirates, piracy increased. When the Chinese dynasties launched brutal attacks upon pirates, piracy decreased. The same happened in ancient Greece, ancient Rome, and ancient Middle Eastern civilizations. Somalia is not different.
I'm not fine with this at all. Your moral compass needs major calibration or a complete overhaul. I'm glad people like you are not in control of any major military or in influential post.
I am HAPPY to hear news about the US Navy, Chinese Navy, and other world navies using superior force upon the Somali criminals. I am GLAD the US military is roughing up Somali criminals with US personnel, US equipment, US-supplied proxies, and US-trained proxies.
I HOPE and WISH the US military will bring back the leathernecks to deal with piracy. Read some glorious history of how US appeasement encouraged piracy but the unchained fury of US leathernecks and military technology ended piracy:
*
*
*
If Somalia has problems with international fishermen and European nations dumping waste near them, then Somalia needs to develop intelligent solutions. Somalians also needs to stop blaming other people for Somalians' problems. Somalians need to accept the fact that their piracy is mostly due to their lawlessness. Somalians treat each other like crap and they treat other people like crap. Until Somalians act like respectable people to themselves and to others, they will always be an uncivilized region.
When the US, China, and other nations negotiate with Somalia, nothing happens except the former half losing people, private property, and ransom to the latter half. When the former half sends superior force, suddenly Somalian piracy declines. This is nothing new.
Piracy has existed for thousands of years all over the world. When the Chinese dynasties appeased pirates, piracy increased. When the Chinese dynasties launched brutal attacks upon pirates, piracy decreased. The same happened in ancient Greece, ancient Rome, and ancient Middle Eastern civilizations. Somalia is not different.
I think that you going to far Infrar_Man99.
As a moderator, I think that your point of view is very radical and inflammatory. You're playing on a dangerous ground and not really looking to understand the situation.
My personal point of view ? I only agree that piracy is unacceptable. But for me, it looks like that you're not fully understanding the political and social-economical situation of this part of the world. Weapons and killing would decrease piracy on short-term, I don't consider that as a solution. Because once the security force will be gone (international forces isn't staying in Somalia forever), this problem will comeback and might be even stronger. We are assisting in our modern society to the new phenomena of radicalization which is pretty dangerous.
Somalia is still developing, and a still developing country doesn't have the same ability of law enforcement than a fully developed country. Their haven't reach the level of trying to promote and fully understand/apply materialist (which is already behind western and developed country who are at the post-materialism state already) and liberal values. This country is still trying to build a international credibility, to reform his own armed force, still trying to survive! Somalia doesn't have the tools to act for now. You were talking about having intelligent solutions, Somalia have tried, but no body is listening. Not influent enough, not powerful enough. Don't forget, pirates isn't acting on the behalf of the government, but on their owns.
The only solution in the social and economical development of Somalia: education, economical growth, human development. Only that way, you can erradicate piracy, but this is a long and painful path. Violence may seems to help short-term, but it's not a viable solution in this case.
PS: I wouldn't talk about international laws and the source of this problems because this will end up and heat up as political discussion, but I believe that you haven't fully understand the situation
As a moderator, I think that your point of view is very radical and inflammatory. You're playing on a dangerous ground and not really looking to understand the situation.
My personal point of view ? I only agree that piracy is unacceptable. But for me, it looks like that you're not fully understanding the political and social-economical situation of this part of the world. Weapons and killing would decrease piracy on short-term, I don't consider that as a solution. Because once the security force will be gone (international forces isn't staying in Somalia forever), this problem will comeback and might be even stronger. We are assisting in our modern society to the new phenomena of radicalization which is pretty dangerous.
Somalia is still developing, and a still developing country doesn't have the same ability of law enforcement than a fully developed country. Their haven't reach the level of trying to promote and fully understand/apply materialist (which is already behind western and developed country who are at the post-materialism state already) and liberal values. This country is still trying to build a international credibility, to reform his own armed force, still trying to survive! Somalia doesn't have the tools to act for now. You were talking about having intelligent solutions, Somalia have tried, but no body is listening. Not influent enough, not powerful enough. Don't forget, pirates isn't acting on the behalf of the government, but on their owns.
The only solution in the social and economical development of Somalia: education, economical growth, human development. Only that way, you can erradicate piracy, but this is a long and painful path. Violence may seems to help short-term, but it's not a viable solution in this case.
PS: I wouldn't talk about international laws and the source of this problems because this will end up and heat up as political discussion, but I believe that you haven't fully understand the situation
Semi-Lobster
Junior Member
To even call Somalia a 'country' right now is even a bit much. Around the capital of Mogadishu, the territory is not controlled directly by the internationally recognised government but by a Byzantine system of clans and warlords who pay lip service to the the weak government in the capital in order to stay in power. The farther you get away from the capital the more obvious it becomes that the government really controls nothing at all. Even after Ethiopian involvement and the power sharing structure of the Transitional Federal Government to bring in rivals into the fold, the vast majority of the country is completely out of the government's hand, and the very structure of the Transitional Federal Government would collapse almost immediately if not for the international support and funding from the UN and African Union.