Rail guns will move projectile CIWS well out beyond what it is now...basically line of sight to the horizon as seen from the sensors and at whatever altitude.
Modern CIWS & Anti-Missile Systems (Deployed and in development)
- Thread starter Jeff Head
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thunderchief
Senior Member
Re: PLAN Type 054 FFG Thread II
Usual Phalanx engagement time (duration of burst) is somewhere around 2 sec, i.e. 150 rounds. Every machine gun has certain dispersion, it is design parameter. For example German MG-42 was considered better then Bren LMG because it had somewhat greater dispersion. Of course, it must not be to great either. For the Phalanx, it is calculated to form a "net" at usual distances with maximum hit probability . Btw, even one heavy round from Phalanx should be enough to make AShM un-aerodynamic and force it to crash .
Not a shorter range per se, but less prediction uncertainty where would our interceptor (CIWS round or a missile like RAM) would have to go . In that sense, laser would be ideal because it travels at the speed of light so you could just point it at the incoming AShM . But lasers have other properties that make them unsuitable for the task . So far rail guns show greatest potential for this kind of application .
Imagine AShM making 90 degrees turn at supersonic speed (like Klub AShM does) . With simple proportional navigation IR missile would suddenly need to make even harder and sharper turn , loosing speed and precious time . Klub could make maneuvers up to 10 g , and that would force RAM to go up to 30-50 g in order to stay on intercept course . I don't know what is max g of RAM, but even if it could execute such maneuver it would lack speed and time to catch up with Klub again
Without information about distance things get even harder . With command guidance you could change direction of RAM as soon as you notice target changing course. With IR proportional navigation you would notice significant change of target's direction only at the end of its maneuver .
Usual Phalanx engagement time (duration of burst) is somewhere around 2 sec, i.e. 150 rounds. Every machine gun has certain dispersion, it is design parameter. For example German MG-42 was considered better then Bren LMG because it had somewhat greater dispersion. Of course, it must not be to great either. For the Phalanx, it is calculated to form a "net" at usual distances with maximum hit probability . Btw, even one heavy round from Phalanx should be enough to make AShM un-aerodynamic and force it to crash .
Not a shorter range per se, but less prediction uncertainty where would our interceptor (CIWS round or a missile like RAM) would have to go . In that sense, laser would be ideal because it travels at the speed of light so you could just point it at the incoming AShM . But lasers have other properties that make them unsuitable for the task . So far rail guns show greatest potential for this kind of application .
Imagine AShM making 90 degrees turn at supersonic speed (like Klub AShM does) . With simple proportional navigation IR missile would suddenly need to make even harder and sharper turn , loosing speed and precious time . Klub could make maneuvers up to 10 g , and that would force RAM to go up to 30-50 g in order to stay on intercept course . I don't know what is max g of RAM, but even if it could execute such maneuver it would lack speed and time to catch up with Klub again
Without information about distance things get even harder . With command guidance you could change direction of RAM as soon as you notice target changing course. With IR proportional navigation you would notice significant change of target's direction only at the end of its maneuver .
thunderchief
Senior Member
There are various types of supersonic missiles, and various attack profiles for same missile type . Missiles traveling at 3+ Mach usually dive on their target and they would be attacked by longer ranged SAMs first . Biggest threat are somewhat slower (around 2 Mach) but low flying maneuverable missiles that could make wild turns almost like larger AAM (AIM-54, R-33 and similar )
Certainly every gun has a dispersion. The CIWS gun, however, is the M61 that was originally designed for fighter aircraft with an emphasis on air-air engagement. As such, it already has a low dispersion by design, for point accuracy (a fighter sized aircraft at 2.000-6.000ft distance) was required. That is it's weakness in air-ground engagements, it's so accurate that it effects only a very small area on the ground.
The latest Block 1B upgrade, among other things, sees use of a refined gun barrel with even tighter dispersion to provide greater first hit distance.
The point here is that a gun CIWS, at the time of the projetile leaving the barrel, will need to know exactly were the intercept will occur, because the bullets cannot update/manceuver in flight.
A guided missile does not need to know, it does update the calculation in flight. As such it simply doesn't matter if there's more time between launch and intercept. A higer prediction uncertainty doesn't matter then, because it is lowered in flight by the updating calculations of the missile.
The problem of intercepting missiles having to make much tighter turns than their targets has been existing for a long time now, and it is the same for every missile there is, no matter what it's guidance mode. Older Sidewinders are said to be capable of 20-30g I think.
I also believe people overestimate the size of the maneuver such AShMs make. After a 90° turn, it points away from the targeted ship and will then need to make 100+° turn to come back. And there's the problem of the seeker loosing lock.
If RAM is capable of executing such a maneuver, which naturally is a design requirement, it'll maneuver to the intercept point and not fall in a chase. As such, it will never fall in the position of having to catch up. Especially since in the endgame the AShM will have to go towards the ship. Othersise all the maneuvering is useless.
Additionally, modern seekers are so sensitive about small changes in relative movement, they're hardly lacking compared to a radar tracking the target.
Jura The idiot
General
Re: PLAN Type 054 FFG Thread II
so, this dispersion of a CIWS gun, can like work to the advantage of defenders?? but let me quote wiki on (which the Goalkeeper uses)
so, this dispersion of a CIWS gun, can like work to the advantage of defenders?? but let me quote wiki on (which the Goalkeeper uses)
this seems to praise lower dispersion ...
Jura The idiot
General
now I used google to search for maximal g an AAM can pull, found this interesting article:
(I mean interesting for me
maybe you know all what's inside ...)
thunderchief
Senior Member
Jura The idiot
General
thanks, but it's kinda long
so your point is the dispersion of the gun used on a CIWS is higher (as compared to the same gun mounted on for example an infantry fighting vehicle), which is beneficial while shooting at the incoming ASuM?
thunderchief
Senior Member
Yes it does, because missiles don't have infinite time or energy for intercept . Read the link that Jura posted, and you would understand that AAM missiles need to pull much more g then target , loosing energy in process . And AShM like Klub doesn't have pilot inside who could pass out , therefore it could perform pretty sharp maneuvers .
AShMs usually target group of ships, and modern ones are capable of prioritizing between targets . They would have relative position and speed of vessels in the group memorized and approach pattern pre-programmed with various zig-zag maneuvers in 3 dimensions . In such scenario, defender has hard time distinguishing real target (ship to the left, ship to the right or me
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thunderchief
Senior Member
thanks, but it's kinda long
Point is , it's the same gun but tweaked for different purpose and with different firing pattern . Fires at the same spot but there is delay in shells arriving , creating curtain of rounds .