Modern CIWS & Anti-Missile Systems (Deployed and in development)

Re: PLAN Type 054 FFG Thread II

Scratch said:

But that's applying different meassueres here, isn't it. The average speed of a 20mm bullet is also going to be way less than muzzle velocity. A missile will at least be able to sustain speed for a few seconds, while a bullet instantly starts decelerating.

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No really. Phalanx use heavy DU shells (or tungsten shells lately) and they do not lose much of kinetic energy flying 1-2000m (usual intercept zone) . Of course, they would slow down if they had to travel 10 000m , but they are not used for that .

Rockets on the other side need some time to accelerate to full speed, and then, if they have to turn, again need to accelerate to compensate for lost speed .

Scratch said:

Phalanx needs to calculate an impact point just the same. A guided missile is capable to adjust inflight, while a bullet is stuck with what the system thought the target would do at barrel exit.

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Not just the same. Phalanx flies faster and usually engage at much closer range . Also, has wider kill zone. Therefore, it has less prediction to do , something like half of second ahead of AShM current position . RAM needs to predict 2 or even 3 seconds (depends on type of the missile intercepted, her speed, distance etc ... )

Scratch said:

Additionally, I think the RAM, besides IR, utilizes passive radar homing as a guidance mode, not command-guidance.
All that being said, it's probably never wrong to be able to point a stream of lead towards an incoming Vampire

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Yes, they use passive radio frequency guidance (on signals emitted by the missile), and I'm going to check on command guidance but I'm fairly certain they use that to, because without that RAM would have hard time determining exact distance between itself and the target in mid-flight .

Re: PLAN Type 054 FFG Thread II

thunderchief said:

Not just the same. Phalanx flies faster and usually engage at much closer range . Also, has wider kill zone. Therefore, it has less prediction to do , something like half of second ahead of AShM current position . RAM needs to predict 2 or even 3 seconds (depends on type of the missile intercepted, her speed, distance etc ...)

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Ok I buy the speed argument, but this one has me still wondering. What do you mean by a "wider kill zone" for a gun CIWS? Dispersion of the rounds? I somehow doubt if that is considerably bigger then the blast/frag volume of a warhead. (I guess it could be, but I never saw a CIWS gun wobbling around to dispers the rounds)
Also, essentially you're making a shorter range a general advantage of air/missile defense systems, I'm not sure I buy that either. That way ESSM / HQ-16 are even less effective as RAM / FN-3000. I'd rather have an incoming AShM blow up 3.000m away than 1.000m. Partly because greater range offers a little more time for reattack.

Additionally, since IR guided missiles continously update intercept geometry that 2 to 3 seconds ahead doesn't make sense to me. The pseudo solution would be to fire RAM at shorter range to mitigate, which doesn't make sense.
At some point though, RAM will also be at the "half a second before impact" point and after that even closer, so in your logic in the end-game a missile CIWS will be more accurate than a gun CIWS.

Yes, they use passive radio frequency guidance (on signals emitted by the missile), and I'm going to check on command guidance but I'm fairly certain they use that to, because without that RAM would have hard time determining exact distance between itself and the target in mid-flight.

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I'm fairly certain RAM, just like so many other missiles, never calculates the distance to it's target in mid-flight as it just doesn't need to. Being developed from an AIM-9 I guess it will use a laser operated proximity fuse to explode into the flight path of it's target.

Re: PLAN Type 054 FFG Thread II

Scratch, Thud, I hope you'll go on with the CIWS discussion: I want to know who of you is right LOL

Scratch said:

... What do you mean by a "wider kill zone" for a gun CIWS? ...

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this could mean several detonation cones (formed by "shrapnels", "pellets" or whatever you call these little surprises

from

The sub-projectiles form a lethal cone-shaped cloud ahead of the oncoming target, destroying its control surfaces, seeker and other vital components.

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Gun type CIWS will become less relevant as ASM becomes faster in speed preventing the CIWS to respond to fire more then a few rounds in which the incoming missile would be ramming into the ship as a fire ball due to inertia.
At Mach 3~4 ASM covers a Kilometer in less then 1 second. Even if you get 75 rounds in that time the actuators moving the guns will not respond fast enough to maintain aim.

By the way Super sonic ASM doesn't do much evasive maneuvers like AAM due to it's much heavier payload so it will come in mostly in a straight line at terminal stage.

SamuraiBlue said:

Gun type CIWS will become less relevant as ASM becomes faster in speed preventing the CIWS to respond to fire more then a few rounds in which the incoming missile would be ramming into the ship as a fire ball due to inertia.
At Mach 3~4 ASM covers a Kilometer in less then 1 second. Even if you get 75 rounds in that time the actuators moving the guns will not respond fast enough to maintain aim.

By the way Super sonic ASM doesn't do much evasive maneuvers like AAM due to it's much heavier payload so it will come in mostly in a straight line at terminal stage.

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Rail Gun technology will meet this CIWS need and allow continued layered defense close in.

The rail gun will have a longer range and will be faster.

Jeff Head said:

Rail Gun technology will meet this CIWS need and allow continued layered defense close in.

The rail gun will have a longer range and will be faster.

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We'll have to see but the present guns weak link isn't velocity of the projectiles itself, it's the aiming mechanism moving the gun barrel towards the projectile and maintaining an intercept vector.

If ASM goes high supersonic then the definition of Close in Weapon System would need to be changed in which the distance be more than 10 Kilometers since a Mach 3~4 incoming missile would reach it's target within 10 seconds even at that range.

SamuraiBlue said:

Gun type CIWS will become less relevant as ASM becomes faster in speed preventing the CIWS to respond to fire more then a few rounds in which the incoming missile would be ramming into the ship as a fire ball due to inertia.
At Mach 3~4 ASM covers a Kilometer in less then 1 second. Even if you get 75 rounds in that time the actuators moving the guns will not respond fast enough to maintain aim.

By the way Super sonic ASM doesn't do much evasive maneuvers like AAM due to it's much heavier payload so it will come in mostly in a straight line at terminal stage.

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CIWS by definition is a close in weapon system and so the issue of range is rather misplaced. It is a last ditch defence and if in practice should it be needed means the primary layered AAW defences have failed to stop leakers. At close range, you either have fragmented debris still hitting the ship or a fully functioning projectile with all the explosive energy that goes with it.

SamuraiBlue said:

...

By the way Super sonic ASM doesn't do much evasive maneuvers like AAM due to it's much heavier payload so it will come in mostly in a straight line at terminal stage.

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also by the way: about one year ago I read most of I could find in Russian sources on the X-31
(I mean ) and from what I recall in the terminal stage of an attack it can take it up (from the sea-skim) to 50 meters and pitch it down while at the speed of about Mach 2

Jura said:

also by the way: about one year ago I read most of I could find in Russian sources on the X-31
(I mean

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) and from what I recall in the terminal stage of an attack it can take it up (from the sea-skim) to 50 meters and pitch it down while at the speed of about Mach 2

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Yeah I believe it's called pop-up but this is not to evade but to hit from the top so the blast vector is up down not side to side.

SamuraiBlue said:

Yeah I believe it's called pop-up but this is not to evade but to hit from the top so the blast vector is up down not side to side.

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could be (I think in Russian it's горка) ... it also reminded me about another thing I read then: this maneuver makes sure the missile wouldn't splash