Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

heres a quote from Sun tzu for all the Ameroica hating hawks on this site

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

- Sun Tzu

here is another one slightly adapted

Whoever is first in the field (technology) and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field (playing catch up in the technology race) and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.
- Sun Tzu

Here is the quote on how China will take Taiwan

To fight and conquer in all your battles is not supreme excellence; supreme excellence consists in breaking the enemy's resistance without fighting.
-Sun Tzu, the Art of War

The growing economic and cultural ties will unify China without a war. Time has always re-unified China.

The nationalist hawks pushing for a war I doubt they will volunteer to serve in is disturbing. Wars cost thousands of lives and billions of dollars. And between the US and PRC there is a chance that it could end life as we know it.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I hope you guys know that Sun Tzu is required reading in all US military academies, war colleges, etc. Being Chinese does give China a monopoly of Sun Tzu's strategies.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

zraver said:

The US goal in any war will be the transports. With out them the PRC cannot invade on a large enough scale (or supply the beachhead) to beat the RoC.

Click to expand...

How about secret tunnels under the Taiwan strait? Any tunnel engineers here to enlighten us?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

How about secret tunnels under the Taiwan strait? Any tunnel engineers here to enlighten us?

Click to expand...

Mean building a tunnel agross the strait from mainland to the island??

I'm not a tunnel engineer, just a civil engineer student, but even a common man can tell you that building such tunnel agross that distance even in civilised situation where the building prosess is done in the both ends, it still would be almoust inpossiple...secret tunnels...:rofl: Lets not make fools out of ourselves...

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Actually it could be done. But it won't! It would just take forever! Probally about 100 years. And it could not be done in secret. Too many men with assoicated equipment envoled.

In New York they have been building a large 60 mile long water tunnel since 1970. It won't be finished until 2020! a monumental task. The cost? $6 billion USD!



New York Third Water Tunnel

Vital Statistics:
Location: New York, New York, USA
Completion Date: 2020
Cost: $6 billion
Length: 316,800 feet (60 miles)
Purpose: Water supply
Setting: Rock
Materials: Concrete
Engineer(s): Grow, Perini & Skanska; Lehiavone & Shea

Six hundred feet below the busy streets of New York City, engineers are boring a 60-mile-long tunnel -- the largest tunnel in America. This tunnel won’t carry cars, trains, or even people, but it will deliver 1.3 billion gallons of water daily to nine million area residents. New York City’s $6 billion Third Water Tunnel is one of the nation’s largest and most complex public works projects ever attempted.

In 1954, New York City recognized the need for a new tunnel to meet the growing demand on its 150-year-old water supply system. Construction began in 1970 on the Third Water Tunnel, a tunnel designed to improve the dependability of New York City’s entire water supply system. The majority of the tunnel is being carved with a 450-ton, 19-foot diameter rock-chewing device called a tunnel boring machine. Unlike the older water supply tunnels in New York City, water control valves in the Third Water Tunnel will be housed in large underground chambers, making them accessible for maintenance and repair.

When completed in 2020, the size and length of the Third Water Tunnel, its sophisticated valve chambers, and its depth of excavation will represent the latest in state-of-the-art tunnel technology.

The equipment used to dig the Third Water Tunnel is the same that was used to dig the underwater Channel Tunnel, or "Chunnel," that connects mainland France to England.
The largest valve chamber in the tunnel, the Van Cortlandt Park Valve Chamber, is 620 feet long (longer than two football fields placed end to end), 42.5 feet wide, and 41 feet high.
The tunnel boring machine, which had to be lowered into the tunnel in pieces and assembled at the bottom, is capable of excavating 50 feet of rock per day at a diameter of 23 feet -- more than twice the rate previously achieved in tunnel construction through drilling and blasting methods.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

A tunnel!?!? Are you kidding me.

Lets have a thought exercise shall we?

Assuming that this is the actual plan of attack. This is very easy to stop.

1.) Figure out where the tunnel is and its route.
2.) Drill a hole on top of it on the sea floor, near Taiwanese coast of course.
3.) Flood it and drown the entire attack force.
4.) Or defend the emergence point at three sides. PLA numerical superiority will be nullified as only the first vehicles are able to engage the enemy.

To zvarer:

If you know the enemy and know yourself, you need not fear the result of a hundred battles. If you know yourself but not the enemy, for every victory gained you will also suffer a defeat. If you know neither the enemy nor yourself, you will succumb in every battle.

Click to expand...

The US carrier strike group knows its own capabilities and weakness. It also knows the probable threat that it faces where ever it goes. Base on this thread, its the carrier sinking group that does not know itself or its enemy.

Whoever is first in the field (technology) and awaits the coming of the enemy, will be fresh for the fight; whoever is second in the field (playing catch up in the technology race) and has to hasten to battle will arrive exhausted.

Click to expand...

Attacking a CSG means you have to get to where it is at while the CSG waits for you. The CSG can see you first and see you farther (thanks to real time datalinks). Also, the US will probably know where the enemy forces are better than the actual enemy commander. In military terms it is called information superiority.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The only reason the was completed in just a few years is that they were digging through chalk!

It took just three years for tunnel boring machines from France and England to chew through the chalky earth and meet hundreds of feet below the surface of the English Channel.

Click to expand...

It will depend on how hard the rock is, and there are also some islands between the mainland and Taiwan. To drill a hole in order to flood the tunnel(s) you must know the precise location(s)!




In the long term, PRC will have much easier time getting control of the Phillipines (their strategic value is even bigger!)- the weakest link in the big island chain, i.e. Taiwan & Japan; during the Ming Dyanasty China considered annexing it, and in the future it will undoubtedly fall into Chinese orbit.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Not to be a spoil sport but drilling a 80-100 mile tyunnel through strata that has not been properly mapped via a systematic core sample mapping would take decades.

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Hmm, what happen to sinking popeye's favourite ship in the world?

I am going to break this down into 2 situations: facing a hungry, skilled tiger, and facing Garfield.

When facing a tiger (what other cat swims?) I would try to disable the ships first with ballistic missiles. I know that American Tigers have SM-2s and 3s. But because I am sending a number(20?) of BMs, it doesn't matter, neither does accuracy. The fleet's radars and planes should be damaged and deemed almost/totally disfunctional. If I am lucky, the aircraft carrier is in (not dangerous) flames.

Then I'd launch super low flying ASM/Drones to slap against the side of ships and weaken it before sending in cruise-ASROCs (ASCMs armed with a torpedo) which if unjammed (You can't shoot the missile, CIWS couldn't reach it, SAMs couldn't fly this low, and the missile couldn't be jammed, it is set to release at a point, not to come to your ship. Do you have enough time to jam a torpedo that just got detected it 3 miles out? ) would hopefully break and sink the ships.

Here's the warhead I am using on the BMs: guided cluster anti-material bomblets, 15% airburst, rest have contact fuzes.
-------------------------
As for Garfield(Hope this isn't offending anyone, but what's the chance that this will happen?) I am talking about old, weak carriers or those off duty. Planes armed with ARMs, incidieray and bunker busters. If radar signals are detected, ARMs are launched to prevent resistence. Fly over the enemy fleet, attack the carrier with fire bombs for aircraft, use bunker busters to make..........AZ Tea (Well, that's how that ship went down, a bomb in the deep, though here we don't know where the ammo is, but if the bomb goes through the ship completely or explode down low, it's going down.)

Can anyone enlighten me on the damage the Hancock got when that A-4 shot off a rocket? I know it lid some planes on fire, but how was that significant? How did it become so severe the ship had to go back to port and get fixed?....... It's metal..... it wasn't aluminum which meant the ship had to be fixed, was it?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

First of all, no one is implying it would or could be 100% effective. You are missing the point. The point is you are proposing an attack into the teeth and strength of the CSG defenses. Yes, it is possible to overwhelm them...but it would be at great cost...and as other posters have said, preparation for it would not go unnoticed itself.

Click to expand...

I ask what preparation would actually be needed? 24 strike aircraft can carry 96 missiles.

To answer your question, yes the Aegis will have no problem facing a variety of targets with multiple flight and threat profile. In fact, if put in autonomous mode, it can do so without human interference.

Click to expand...

Oh really, because they've actually conducted tests resembling the exact scenario right? Hundreds of missiles or drones tested against AEGIS. Some flying high and very fast, some flying low and very fast, and some flying low and slow. This has actually been test-proven? Not to mention this coming without any effective warning. At what altitude and distance can AEGIS detect a threat over-the-horiozon? How many targets can it detect at that distance, can it track any and if so how many?

Has this all been conclusively found in training exercises showing that a varied mass attack would not be effective if conducted without warning?

If a carrier is under threat, they usually launch ALL of its aircraft, drain the aviation fuel lines, and flood them with C02. This standard to prevent catastrophic damage (aircraft are prone to exploding) see Battle of Midway and Forrestal fire. Non essential aircraft (ASW, AEW) orbit away from the threat axis.

Click to expand...

How long does it take to get all those aircraft in the air now?

US carrier commanders have a battle space of about 700 miles in the open ocean. That is anything on that area can be detected, tracked, identified, and prosecuted if hostile without putting the carrier at immediate risk.

Click to expand...

Again, I ask how well this has actually been tested. I'm pretty sure plenty has come within that envelope undetected.

One more thing, the threat level you guys are proposing does not exist. Nether China nor Russia possess the assets, the anti-ship missiles is sufficient number, the command and control and logistical knowhow, and personnel with sufficient training to conduct a blue water maritime strike (flying in blue water in different than in land). So all of this discussion is just academic.

Click to expand...

I'm talking hundreds of missiles here, they do have that much.