Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

coolieno99 says:
It is a bit strange to have that type of a policy. There are about 50 civilian nuclear reactors in Japan. Japan had just finished building one of the largest plutonium reprocessing plant in the world.
I asked that question a Japanese yard engineer/worker who came aboard the Hawk before we pulled in, and he said: "Japan doesn't allow nuclear power for MILITARY purposes on its territory". But that was in in '98. Now they deploy their forces to Iraq & Indian Ocean and conduct
Discussions on questions that had long been considered taboo have moved into the Japanese mainstream. There have even been debates in the political and media circles about the pros and cons of Japan possessing nuclear weapons to defend itself. ..Like his predecessors, Koizumi stretched the boundaries of the constitution by supporting US operations in Afghanistan and by deploying non-combat troops to Iraq, the first SDF mission to a combat zone after World War II.
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bd popeye says:
the original plan was to rotate a CV to Japan every 3-4 years? Did not work out that way. I do not know why.
No, I didn't know about it. I guess it was cheaper (for personnel/dependents and other reasons) to keep a carrier there for about a decade before its decommissioning- that's why they were more expendable than those Stateside. When we crossdecked in HI with CV-62, 1/3rd of our crew came from that carrier to continue their sea duty. Then we spent 1.5 month pierside so that the famalies of our crewmembers from the States could be brought in and get settled. Like was noted before, just 30+ days inport between at sea periods/deployments is considered enough for a forward deployed CV.
 
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Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

With more nations (China, India, European Countries) getting carriers, the possibilty of a carrier vs. carrier confrontation grows. It has been pretty well established in this thread that any nation going up against the USN in a carrier vs. carrier fight or using their present navies wouldn't have much of a chance. But let's move this away from the USN a bit. For example, I could see the IN going against the PLAN with the Vikramaditya and one of their upcoming indigenous carriers and the PLAN having the Varyag and an indigenous carrier. Or the same could be true of a JMSDF carrier against one or more PLAN carriers. The dynamics of those battles would be very, very different.

(Don't flame this just because I mentioned the IN and the PLAN in the same sentance. Also, let's see if we can avoid turning this into an arguement over a Japan-China arms race.:coffee: )
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
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Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Sampan's 2 penneth and probably nothing new.

As this is a Chinese Military Forum I will base it on a Chinese Attack.

As has been previously mentioned, any initial phase of an attack must be more of an Airfield Denial mission rather than Anti Ship.

My preference would be a mass attack by UACV coversions which carry a max load of anti rad and cluster munitions. The idea would be to seperate UACV's and missiles at AD Interception range, thus suddenly multiplying the targets to overwhelm AD. I would also prefer the missiles to realease sub munitions at Point defence range to further add to the confusion.

The aim of the attack would be to knock out Radar and PD systems and also to mine Flight Decks and destroy any Aircraft and Kill Flight Deck Personnel that were Top side.

For maximum impact I would try to launch such an attack whilst the Carriers Air Craft were on mission in order to increase loss and dislocation by having to seek another landing place.

If the the Carriers AD were sufficiently damaged, then obviously a major "Ship Buster Mission" could be launched.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I couldn't say it better myself:
While the U.S. Navy probably will remain unchallenged in blue waters, it faces greater threats as it gets closer to shore. Here water currents, thermal layers, and various obstacles can interfere with even the most advanced sensors, and a variety of defensive weapons systems lurk in wait.

More than 75,000 anti-ship missiles are owned by 70 countries. A few are ballistic, but most are of the cruise-missile variety. Their potency was proved in 1987 when French-made Exocets fired by an Iraqi aircraft crippled the frigate USS Stark, killing 37 sailors. Earlier, Argentina used Exocets to sink two British ships during the 1982 Falklands War. Newer anti-ship cruise missiles such as the Russian-made Yakhont, Sunburn, and Uran are even deadlier because they have faster speeds, greater stealth capabilities, and more accurate, GPS-enhanced targeting. Russia is selling these missiles to customers abroad and some nations like China are developing their own versions. Israel suffered the consequences during its recent Lebanon war when an Iranian-provided C-802 cruise missile crippled one of its warships off the coast of Lebanon.

U.S. warships have sophisticated defensive systems to guard against air attack: Incoming missiles can be deflected by electronic countermeasures, flares, or chaff, or destroyed by naval aircraft, sea-to-air Standard missiles, or, as a last resort, by rapid-fire, radar-guided Phalanx guns. But, like the Stark, a warship could be caught by surprise or overwhelmed by a flurry of missiles coming from different directions.

Even more worrisome from an American viewpoint is the fact that transport ships and fuel tankers which have to replenish a fleet at sea have no protection when they are outside the defensive range of a battle group. They are as vulnerable as supply convoys on the roads of Iraq. Because a supercarrier has only about a three-day stockpile of JP-5 jet fuel (6,500 barrels a day are needed during combat operations), the most powerful warship in history could be rendered useless if its fuel tankers were sunk.

The threat to shipping, civil and military, is increased by diesel submarines. The latest diesel submarines have ultra-quiet electric engines that make them hard to detect with sonar, and they are much cheaper to buy or produce than a nuclear-powered submarine. Russia has exported Kilo-class diesel-electric subs to China, India, Iran, and Algeria, among others. China is producing its own Song-class diesel submarines in a bid to challenge U.S. naval hegemony using the same strategy that Germany, with its U-boats, once used to challenge British dominion of the waves. U.S. antisubmarine defenses are quite sophisticated, especially in open waters, but even American sensors can have trouble tracking quiet diesel subs in noisy coastal waters.

Mines, which can be scattered by submarines or other vessels, represent another major threat to shipping. More than 300 different varieties are available on the world market. They can be triggered by changes in magnetic fields, acoustic levels, seismic pressure, or other factors. Some come equipped with microelectronics that allow them to distinguish between different types of ships, while others have small motors that allow them to move around. This makes it difficult to certify that a shipping channel is free of mines—it may have been safe an hour ago, but not any more. Demining technology has lagged behind; the U.S. Navy, for one, has never placed much emphasis on lowly minesweepers. It has paid a price for this neglect. In 1987, during operations to prevent Iran from closing the Persian Gulf, an Iranian mine of World War I design nearly sank the frigate USS Samuel Roberts. Four years later, in the Gulf War, the cruiser USS Princeton and the amphibious landing ship USS Tripoli were nearly blasted apart by Iraqi mines. And even a cheap motorboat packed with explosives can pose a significant threat to a modern warship. The USS Cole, an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, was badly damaged in such a terrorist attack in 2000.

All of these threats could be largely negated if U.S. fleets were to stay far out at sea, but they have to approach fairly close to land to launch aircraft or missiles with operational ranges of only a few hundred miles. Moreover, the places where the U.S. Navy is likely to fight in the future are dangerously narrow. The Persian Gulf is only 30 miles wide at its narrowest point, the Taiwan Strait only 100 miles wide.

To maintain its dominance, the U.S. Navy regularly updates the electronics and weapons aboard its warships even as the hulls and propulsion systems remain unchanged. It also plans to build a variety of unmanned vessels along with a CVN-21 aircraft carrier to replace the Nimitz-class, a Zumwalt-class DD(X) destroyer to replace Oliver Hazard Perry-class frigates and Spruance-class destroyers, a CG(X) cruiser to replace the Ticonderoga-class cruisers, and a smaller and speedier Littoral Combat Ship with no direct parallel in today’s fleet that would focus on clearing mines, hunting submarines, and fighting terrorists in coastal waters. All of these new vessels will have improved defenses and information-processing tools as well as “plug and play” capacity that will allow them to be quickly reconfigured for different missions. They will also incorporate composite materials, stealthier designs, and electric propulsion to make them harder to detect, though an aircraft carrier with a 4.5-acre flight deck can never exactly hide.

Whether all of these warships are truly needed, given the U.S. Navy’s already substantial lead over all competitors, remains an open question. A program to develop giant sea bases—perhaps akin to offshore oil-platforms—that would allow American ground and air forces to operate overseas might be of greater use, given the growing difficulty the U.S. has had in gaining basing and overflight rights from other countries. But what seems clear, on sea as on land, is that the development of new weapons systems will continue to augment American supremacy while leaving American military forces vulnerable to various “low-tech” attacks.

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The_Zergling

Junior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The article by BlueJacket indeed brings up some very interesting and vital points that I had previously frankly overlooked when analyzing the situation.

Although a carrier battle group can be hard to find and if found has many defensive mechanisms, fact of the matter is that it isn't a completely self-sustaining system, and that re-supplying vessels are particularly easy to destroy. Also, range of the aircraft launched by the carrier must be taken into consideration during combat operations, while a carrier may be hard to sink if it is simply patrolling in peacetime, during combat ops the situation changes drastically because the mobility of the "floating airfield" is restricted to the several hundred mile radius of its aircraft, without which it is essentially worthless.

So if I'm reading this correctly, a carrier is hard to find and sink if not engaging in combat operations. Once that occurs the situation changes, and it is made vulnerable to a mission kill by extension via destruction of its fuel, ammo, and food(?) supply, plus the required proximity to a target (unless it wants to sacrifice its aircraft wing).

Good article! (The plot thickens...)
 

bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Their potency was proved in 1987 when French-made Exocets fired by an Iraqi aircraft crippled the frigate USS Stark, killing 37 sailors. Earlier, Argentina used Exocets to sink two British ships during the 1982 Falklands War.

In this post 9-11 world the USN force protection posture is much diffrent. I dare say the RN is probally the same as the USN. The Iraqi aircraft that launched the missile was ID'ed as friendly. .In my opinion the Stark should have shot the missile down.

U.S. warships have sophisticated defensive systems to guard against air attack: Incoming missiles can be deflected by electronic countermeasures, flares, or chaff, or destroyed by naval aircraft, sea-to-air Standard missiles, or, as a last resort, by rapid-fire, radar-guided Phalanx guns.

Very true.

But, like the Stark, a warship could be caught by surprise or overwhelmed by a flurry of missiles coming from different directions.

With the force protection posture taken by the USN presently this sceniro shoud not happen.

Even more worrisome from an American viewpoint is the fact that transport ships and fuel tankers which have to replenish a fleet at sea have no protection when they are outside the defensive range of a battle group.

Repleinshment ships are generally in range of protection of the CSG(Carrier Strike Group) assets. The author did not point out the USAF and USN work hand in hand. He musta forgot:eek:

Mines, which can be scattered by submarines or other vessels, represent another major threat to shipping. More than 300 different varieties are available on the world market.

The USN has placed minesweeepers and counter measures premantely deployed in the Persain Gulf. If there were active mines in the Gulf right now wouldn't some sort of ship struck one by now in this heavily traveled region?

And even a cheap motorboat packed with explosives can pose a significant threat to a modern warship. The USS Cole, an Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, was badly damaged in such a terrorist attack in 2000.

Force portection measures employed by the USN in 2000 were "piss poor" . That situation has changed dramaticlly since then.

The threat to shipping, civil and military, is increased by diesel submarines. The latest diesel submarines have ultra-quiet electric engines that make them hard to detect with sonar

Very true! But the USN is perfecting methods for hunting SSK's by training with the Swedish SSK HMS Gotland since July 2005. This training will continue unitl next summer.

great article. kudos to the authour.
 

Obi Wan Russell

Jedi Master
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The RN lost modern ships in the Falklands... modern ships fitted with 1960s vintage radars and lacking any CIWS other than WW2 era Oerlikon 20mm and Bofors 40mm guided by the mk1 eyeball. HMS Sheffield didn't even have her type 965 airsearch radar switched on at the time as she was making a satellite call to London. She was recieving a radar picture from another type 42 nearby sent over by datalink, and the Super Etendards were detected momentarily about two minutes before the missile struck. They were not properly identified (there is some debate about what the senior warfare officer was doing at the time, some reports suggest he left his post to go to the galley for refreshment and the official report is only now being made public) and so effective countermeasures (ie launching chaff and turning end on to the missile) were not ordered. The missile did not explode, the damage was caused by it's still burning rocket motor igniting large quantities of flamable materials within the ship. Nor did the Exocet 'sink' her directly, she sank during bad weather whilst under tow to South Georgia six days later after water flooded in through the missile hole in her starboard side.

Since then the type 965 has been replaced by the much more capable type 1022 (a hybrid radar system using the antenna of the advanced but cancelled type 1030 STIR and the transmitter of the Dutch LW08), Flamable materials have been removed from RN ships, Phalanx or Goalkeeper have been installed on every ship without Sea Wolf SAMs (as well as in addition to aboard the four type 22 batch 3 frigates), Sea Dart SAM systems have been constantly updated to maintain viability, Damage control excercises are relentless and vigilance maintained at all times.

During the first Gulf War HMS Glouscester (a type 42 DDG) shot down an Iraqi anti ship missile which had been fired from shore at the USS Wisconsin, for which she was acting as escort, proving Sea Dart's upgraded capability made it effective against sea skimming missiles. The type 1022 radar also proved capable of detecting F117 stealth aircraft over the sea! The panels on the stealth reflect radar energy away at odd angles (ie not back to the radar transmitter) but over the sea these reflections bounce off the water and can still be detected, if you know what to look for. During the 90s, a B2 stealth bomber paid a visit to the Farnborough airshow during which a SAM system being demonstrated to potential buyers was able to get a lock on the aircraft and maintain it for some time (proximity had a lot to do with it I suspect, no stealth aircraft is invisible to radar, just a very small target.), which is not to denigrate stealth technology by any means but to demonstrate modern western radar systems are keeping pace.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Repleinshment ships are generally in range of protection of the CSG(Carrier Strike Group) assets. The author did not point out the USAF and USN work hand in hand.
The USN has placed minesweeepers and counter measures premantely deployed in the Persain Gulf. If there were active mines in the Gulf right now wouldn't some sort of ship struck one by now in this heavily traveled region?
... the USN is perfecting methods for hunting SSK's by training with the Swedish SSK HMS Gotland since July 2005. This training will continue unitl next summer.
So, you are finaly admitting that the USN needs USAF to help protect those oilers/supply ships? :D
"Generaly in range" doesn't mean ALLWAYS IN RANGE, and even if they were there, will there ALLWAYS be enough time to get to them?
Mines aren't there now, but can be layed in large numbers in the matter of hours. Even with those minesweeepers the CSG will not risk entering the infested areas and will need more logistical support to sustain sorties over hundreds of miles.

In case you missed this:

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bd popeye

The Last Jedi
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

So, you are finaly admitting that the USN needs USAF to help protect those oilers/supply ships

Finally admit what? Read my past post since I joined this forum and in the old forum. I have always stated that the USN and USAF work hand in hand as a team. That's been going on for many years....

That link you posted is old news. I've previously commented on USN ASW vs a SSK.
 

BLUEJACKET

Banned Idiot
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

I have always stated that the USN and USAF work hand in hand as a team. That's been going on for many years....
I only heard of the "Navy-Marine Corps team", so since they and the AF "work
hand in hand " then it should be stated so! Of course I realize there are lots of $$$ involved. If we have the USN & AF combining ops/depended on each other, then the USN isn't entirely autonomous in what it does!
 
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