Modern Carrier Battle Group..Strategies and Tactics

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

The Dreadnaughts actually have a very short reign. As soon they were introduced, so did the Torpedo Boat which showed they can be an important factor like in the Battle of Tsushima.

It was for this reason the Destroyer was conceived, the original name being Torpedo Boat Destroyer.

By WWI, Battle of Jutland excluded, battleships on both sides were intimidated by a new factor---the submarine. Thus, the results are mostly rare skimishes and anticlimatic, just as they did in WWII.

If you look at every case, you will find that there were a number of factors that contributed to the sinking, namely the sub just happened to stumble upon and be in a position to fire at such warships by chance.

Everything a sub ever did was 'stumble' upon their targets. For that matter, subs 'stumbled' into the greatest and largest collective sunk tonnage on both World Wars. The key is, to position themselves in places where they can stumble upon their victims. As a note, underwater, a CBVG is probably a lot more detectable than they are above water. Note that sound and sonar, do not require line of sight.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Everything a sub ever did was 'stumble' upon their targets. For that matter, subs 'stumbled' into the greatest and largest collective sunk tonnage on both World Wars. The key is, to position themselves in places where they can stumble upon their victims. As a note, underwater, a CBVG is probably a lot more detectable than they are above water. Note that sound and sonar, do not require line of sight.

However, this was defeated by advances in anti-submarine warfare and better tactics. Everything from advances in sonar, radar and weaponry, combined with better tactics, such as hunter-killer groups, and long range patrol airplanes. The Japanese on the other hand did not prioritize anti-submarine warfare, as their mindset was stuck on Alfred Thayer Mahan's theory of a single decisive battle and as such did not build escort warships to protect their supply lines like the Allies did.

I think it has been demonstrated that given sufficient escorts, combined with well trained and competent crews, surface ships are able to brush aside attacking submarines, and either escape unharmed or inflict severe casualties on a pure submarine force. For example, the battle of Convoy SC 130 during World War II proved this point; the convoy was escorted by competent escorts, and the convoy got through undamaged, while sinking 5 U-boats. This, along with many other battles during May 1943 turned the tide of the Battle of the Atlantic against the U-boat waffe.
 

planeman

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Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

However, this was defeated by advances in anti-submarine warfare and better tactics. Everything from advances in sonar, radar and weaponry, combined with better tactics, such as hunter-killer groups, and long range patrol airplanes. ...... I think it has been demonstrated that given sufficient escorts, combined with well trained and competent crews, surface ships are able to brush aside attacking submarines, and either escape unharmed or inflict severe casualties on a pure submarine force.

Intelligence has played a far bigger role than this post acknowledges. In the bigger picture the reason that the U-boats were defeated was not so much the quantity or skill of the Allied convoy escorts, it was the fact that the British were intercepting and deciphering so much encrypted German U-boat radio traffic (called "Ultra" by the Allies) that they could optimise the deployment of the escorts they had, in the right place at the right time - the Germans were oblivious to the fact that their codes could be broken and consequently communicated too much useful info in their orders/sit-rep messages.

For the sub operator the problem is supposedly solved by use of one-time cyphers and advanced burst sat-link radios etc, except that these are still prone to attack - some day someone will break them or find a way of triangulating them, if they haven't already.

To bring the sub game forward to the cold war, both USSR and USA knew exactly where eachother's subs were 99% of the time. The US because of the SOSUS static sonar systems with arrays dotted around the oceans of the world tracking and classifying every noise 24/7. And the Soviets because they had at least one spy in USN handing them over the USN's one-time pads so that they could decode a massive amount of submarine communications.


So, in peacetime particularly, it is still possible to catch the USN sleeping (as surfacing a SSN behind a carrier shows), but provided the intell guys pass on the info in a timely manner (Pearl Harbour!), the CBG should know EXACTLY where all 'your' subs are. Gone is the element of surprise.

SOSUS only tells location, not intention, but it is nonetheless impressive technology which as far as we know is unparalleled in the world.

In this situation, sabotage/tapping/decoying SOSUS arrays is a major priority if you plan on countering CBGs with subs. SOSUS is supposedly on a backburner and navy involvement less due to lack of perceived sub threat but most of it is still operational just on a lower tempo (and more automated??). Plus we can assume that a "rapid reaction theatre deployable" system will be developed to fit with today's mood.

SF with limpet mines, and sowing mines is probably higher %.
 
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Cool, so to summarise, after 30 pages, what are the ways that appear credible?

You are missing navalized long-range LACMs, ALCMs, and anti-ship MRBMs.
A 1800km range DF-21 with an approach velocity of mach7 is going to be tough for any fleet defence to deal with.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

You are missing navalized long-range LACMs, ALCMs, and anti-ship MRBMs.
A 1800km range DF-21 with an approach velocity of mach7 is going to be tough for any fleet defence to deal with.

Assuming you know where to shoot at, and can accurately predict the position in the future...
 
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Assuming you know where to shoot at, and can accurately predict the position in the future...

Well China already has the sattelites in place, so if they're located near the Chinese coast the USAF/USN will have a very hard time getting rid of them.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

SOSUS is supposedly on a backburner and navy involvement less due to lack of perceived sub threat but most of it is still operational just on a lower tempo (and more automated??).

The reason for that is SOSUS is no longer as effective as it once was. Remember the Soviet era subs are noisy, and everything happens in the cold, open water of the Atlantic. Once subs start to reach the level of background noise, it becomes very difficult to find and filter out its sound signature in real time, when you have to deal with thousands and thousands of other sounds at the same time. The problem worsens in the littorals, along heavy trade traffic routes, where water is warmer, has different salinity and acidity levels, all of which affect sonar propagation. Add to that are biologics, as well as water currents and thermal layers, all of which serve to block sonar. Sonar coming from water layer which has a different temperature and salinity can be blocked by a wall of water that has a different temperature and salinity.

Think of the Lexus V-6 engine. Think of the sound it makes. Think of finding that sound in the middle of a New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai or Tokyo intersection in time before the car leaves the traffic light.

When you think of seas and oceans like watery jungles, the sub and its crew are like jungle fighters. They become specialists at that particular water environment. Even the sonar operators have to know the biologics and water conditions of their particular area to a tee. A sub with a crew coming from an ocean or sea from a different part of the world coming to the home turf of the other sub is in a serious disadvantage especially the sonar operators. Can't get a sub and crew that operates on the Baltic sea and expect him to perform as well at the Straits of Malaccas overnight.

Even dipping sonar from helicopters and dropped buoys from MPAs have their problems. Why? Because they don't go deep enough. There are going to be thermal layers, salinity layers, acidity layers, schools of krill, fish and squid that's going to screw around and block the sonars from the sub below. None of these are big enough, long enough. The emphasis now is passive ultra low frequency sonars that you can move around in a boat and set in various depth. Why do you want a boat or a sub? Because a vessel on water can also act as a water samples laboratory, use other sensors to determine water temperature, salinity, etc,. because you can use this as factors when the data has to be processed on computers. Otherwise, you have to rely on blind guesswork. That's why SOSUS is being left for SURTASS, which are specialized sonar ships that move around and work more like laboratories.

Why is aviation based ASW hitting its limits? Because aircraft and particularly helicopters cannot carry the kind of electric power needed for super long range sonars that has hundreds and hundreds of hydrophones. A hydrophone is a like a microphone and each needs juice. Much like a radar array which separate elements, the more elements you have, and the more power you put into each element/hydrophone, so is the total power requirements of the sonar. That gives subs with nuclear power juicing up large flank sonars a tremendous detection advantage over things like helicopters with dipping sonars or even surface destroyers. Not as good as nuclear subs, but even large modern conventional submarines that carry huge amounts of batteries and carrying powerful generators will come as second. When it comes to low frequency sonars, the lower the frequency, the bigger the array, much like in radar. Again this favors large subs fitted with large arrays set on their flanks. And its juice, juice. and juice; a destroyer still has to power its phase arrays and early warning radars, the sub only has sonars to feed.

A nuclear sub carrying ultra long range passive flank sonars armed with heavy torpedoes and AshMs, has single silent 7 bladed props or pumpjets, with anti-active sonar coatings vs. a modern destroyer with its bow and hull sonars, twin noisy five bladed props, no anecholic coatings, running on multiple gas turbines with reduction gears, armed with light torpedoes and ASROCs, which are light torpedoes with a rocket boosted stage. Note that light torpedoes, unlike heavy torpedoes, are not wire guided, nor do the light torpedoes travel deep enough, or fast enough, compared to heavy torpedoes.

This is an analogy that looks like an F-22 with AMRAAMs facing a J-7 armed only with short ranged missiles.
 
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Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Think of the Lexus V-6 engine. Think of the sound it makes. Think of finding that sound in the middle of a New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai or Tokyo intersection in time before the car leaves the traffic light.

When you think of seas and oceans like watery jungles, the sub and its crew are like jungle fighters. They become specialists at that particular water environment. Even the sonar operators have to know the biologics and water conditions of their particular area to a tee. A sub with a crew coming from an ocean or sea from a different part of the world coming to the home turf of the other sub is in a serious disadvantage especially the sonar operators. Can't get a sub and crew that operates on the Baltic sea and expect him to perform as well at the Straits of Malaccas overnight.

Even dipping sonar from helicopters and dropped buoys from MPAs have their problems. Why? Because they don't go deep enough. There are going to be thermal layers, salinity layers, acidity layers, schools of krill, fish and squid that's going to screw around and block the sonars from the sub below. None of these are big enough, long enough. The emphasis now is passive ultra low frequency sonars that you can move around in a boat and set in various depth. Why do you want a boat or a sub? Because a vessel on water can also act as a water samples laboratory, use other sensors to determine water temperature, salinity, etc,. because you can use this as factors when the data has to be processed on computers. Otherwise, you have to rely on blind guesswork. That's why SOSUS is being left for SURTASS, which are specialized sonar ships that move around and work more like laboratories.

Why is aviation based ASW hitting its limits? Because aircraft and particularly helicopters cannot carry the kind of electric power needed for super long range sonars that has hundreds and hundreds of hydrophones. A hydrophone is a like a microphone and each needs juice. Much like a radar array which separate elements, the more elements you have, and the more power you put into each element/hydrophone, so is the total power requirements of the sonar. That gives subs with nuclear power juicing up large flank sonars a tremendous detection advantage over things like helicopters with dipping sonars or even surface destroyers. Not as good as nuclear subs, but even large modern conventional submarines that carry huge amounts of batteries and carrying powerful generators will come as second. When it comes to low frequency sonars, the lower the frequency, the bigger the array, much like in radar. Again this favors large subs fitted with large arrays set on their flanks. And its juice, juice. and juice; a destroyer still has to power its phase arrays and early warning radars, the sub only has sonars to feed.

A nuclear sub carrying ultra long range passive flank sonars armed with heavy torpedoes and AshMs, has single silent 7 bladed props or pumpjets, with anti-active sonar coatings vs. a modern destroyer with its bow and hull sonars, twin noisy five bladed props, no anecholic coatings, running on multiple gas turbines with reduction gears, armed with light torpedoes and ASROCs, which are light torpedoes with a rocket boosted stage. Note that light torpedoes, unlike heavy torpedoes, are not wire guided, nor do the light torpedoes travel deep enough, or fast enough, compared to heavy torpedoes.

This is an analogy that looks like an F-22 with AMRAAMs facing a J-7 armed only with short ranged missiles.

I would disagree for a number of reasons:
1. Aviation-based anti-submarine warfare is still a tool in the box; the surface ship with its large sonar system is designed for the initial detection. If the surface ship picks up a potential contact, it sends a helicopter over to investigate. If it is deemed hostile, you can engage from a distance.
2. Surface ships are remarkably quiet underwater; most of the systems are installed on sound isolation mats, and gas turbines do not vibrate a lot, which is the primary source of underwater noise. Furthermore, most Western escort ships are equipped with the Prairie Masker bubbler; this system is designed to mask the ships' noise with tiny bubbles, and these bubbles on the underwater sonar sound like rainfall on the ocean.
3. Lightweight torpedoes are just as fast heavy torpedoes, and can dive as deeply; for example, the US Mk46 and Mk48 torpedoes are virtually identical in speed, and can dive as deep as needed to engage high performance submarines. Remember, with submarines, any leak at depth is catastrophic, even if it is a minor one. Therefore, there is less of a need to use a large warhead due to the effects of water pressure on the target.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?

Re: How Do You Sink A Carrier?
Quote:
Originally Posted by crobato View Post
Think of the Lexus V-6 engine. Think of the sound it makes. Think of finding that sound in the middle of a New York, Hong Kong, Shanghai or Tokyo intersection in time before the car leaves the traffic light.

When you think of seas and oceans like watery jungles, the sub and its crew are like jungle fighters. They become specialists at that particular water environment. Even the sonar operators have to know the biologics and water conditions of their particular area to a tee. A sub with a crew coming from an ocean or sea from a different part of the world coming to the home turf of the other sub is in a serious disadvantage especially the sonar operators. Can't get a sub and crew that operates on the Baltic sea and expect him to perform as well at the Straits of Malaccas overnight.

Even dipping sonar from helicopters and dropped buoys from MPAs have their problems. Why? Because they don't go deep enough. There are going to be thermal layers, salinity layers, acidity layers, schools of krill, fish and squid that's going to screw around and block the sonars from the sub below. None of these are big enough, long enough. The emphasis now is passive ultra low frequency sonars that you can move around in a boat and set in various depth. Why do you want a boat or a sub? Because a vessel on water can also act as a water samples laboratory, use other sensors to determine water temperature, salinity, etc,. because you can use this as factors when the data has to be processed on computers. Otherwise, you have to rely on blind guesswork. That's why SOSUS is being left for SURTASS, which are specialized sonar ships that move around and work more like laboratories.

Why is aviation based ASW hitting its limits? Because aircraft and particularly helicopters cannot carry the kind of electric power needed for super long range sonars that has hundreds and hundreds of hydrophones. A hydrophone is a like a microphone and each needs juice. Much like a radar array which separate elements, the more elements you have, and the more power you put into each element/hydrophone, so is the total power requirements of the sonar. That gives subs with nuclear power juicing up large flank sonars a tremendous detection advantage over things like helicopters with dipping sonars or even surface destroyers. Not as good as nuclear subs, but even large modern conventional submarines that carry huge amounts of batteries and carrying powerful generators will come as second. When it comes to low frequency sonars, the lower the frequency, the bigger the array, much like in radar. Again this favors large subs fitted with large arrays set on their flanks. And its juice, juice. and juice; a destroyer still has to power its phase arrays and early warning radars, the sub only has sonars to feed.

A nuclear sub carrying ultra long range passive flank sonars armed with heavy torpedoes and AshMs, has single silent 7 bladed props or pumpjets, with anti-active sonar coatings vs. a modern destroyer with its bow and hull sonars, twin noisy five bladed props, no anecholic coatings, running on multiple gas turbines with reduction gears, armed with light torpedoes and ASROCs, which are light torpedoes with a rocket boosted stage. Note that light torpedoes, unlike heavy torpedoes, are not wire guided, nor do the light torpedoes travel deep enough, or fast enough, compared to heavy torpedoes.

This is an analogy that looks like an F-22 with AMRAAMs facing a J-7 armed only with short ranged missiles.
I would disagree for a number of reasons:
1. Aviation-based anti-submarine warfare is still a tool in the box; the surface ship with its large sonar system is designed for the initial detection. If the surface ship picks up a potential contact, it sends a helicopter over to investigate. If it is deemed hostile, you can engage from a distance.

Compared to the sonar in the latest submarines, sonar on surface ships aren't big at all. Furthermore, hull sonars on surface ships are more affected by surface wake and flow issues. If a ship has to use TAS or VDS, the drag prevents the ship from traveling fast and likewise, the sonar can only travel up to a certain speed or the flow issues will affect it.

Contact via surface can be limited due to thermal layers. which is why VDS is the only thing that is important here.

2. Surface ships are remarkably quiet underwater; most of the systems are installed on sound isolation mats, and gas turbines do not vibrate a lot, which is the primary source of underwater noise. Furthermore, most Western escort ships are equipped with the Prairie Masker bubbler; this system is designed to mask the ships' noise with tiny bubbles, and these bubbles on the underwater sonar sound like rainfall on the ocean.

No they're not. One reason why Soviet subs were noisy was that they run on twin screws. Some, like the Foxtrot and November, run on three screws. When they went to single screws, which the US subs went earlier, there was a notable reduction in noise. A carrier has four screws.

Submarines use seven bladed propellers which revolve much more slowly, develop far less cavitation and provides a better harmonic characteristics than five bladed props which use surface ships use. Subs started transitioning to seven bladed screws as early as the mid sixties.

Two, three, four or five bladed props make far more noise than a single seven bladed propeller.

The noise bubblers make like rainfall don't travel far in the ocean. Modern sonars are looking at deep very low frequency noises because these frequencies have longer range.

Surface ships are not coated like submarines to be resistant and absorbent against sonar.

3. Lightweight torpedoes are just as fast heavy torpedoes, and can dive as deeply; for example, the US Mk46 and Mk48 torpedoes are virtually identical in speed, and can dive as deep as needed to engage high performance submarines. Remember, with submarines, any leak at depth is catastrophic, even if it is a minor one. Therefore, there is less of a need to use a large warhead due to the effects of water pressure on the target.

No they're not. Heavy torps carry stronger motors, more fuel and batteries. The deeper you get, the more you have to resist against the pressure. That means more beef, more weight, which means more fuel, juice, and more powerful motor. There is a reason why heavyweight torpedoes were introduced in the first place.

If technology improved to the point that light weight torpedoes can match earlier heavy weight torpedoes in performance, then technological advancements would push the latest heavyweights to a new level altogether.

Lets not forget, heavy torpedoes are wire guided, That's the equivalent of a BVRAAM missile that has datalink midphase guidance, vs. a missile without.
 
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