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Deleted member 23272

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Plot thickens, the US knew the balloon entered their airspace on January 28th, but chose to keep it on the hush hush. Article says they didn't want to shoot it down there and compromise Blinken's visit to China, but I lean towards they just wanted to use the balloon as an excuse for propaganda. Anyhow, this whole thing has been quite bizarre indeed.

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Overbom

Brigadier
Registered Member
Shoot down their spy planes when they fly over SCS
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‘Overreaction’: China hits out at US for downing suspected Chinese spy balloon​

  • Beijing says it reserves the right to a further response to Washington’s decision to shoot down the airship
Beijing slammed Washington’s decision to shoot down a Chinese balloon, saying it was an overreaction and China reserved the right to take “further responses that are necessary”.
“China strongly disapproves of and protests against the US attack on a civilian unmanned airship by force,” the Chinese Ministry of Foreign Affairs said in a statement on Sunday.
It added that Beijing had notified the US side “repeatedly” that the airship was only for civilian purposes and had entered the US accidentally.
“The US’ use of force is a clear overreaction and a serious violation of international practice,” it said, adding that China would “resolutely” defend the rights of the related Chinese companies.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
So why F-22? Is it purely due to service ceiling?

If shoe was on the other foot which aircraft in PLAAF would be best suited for taking out high altitude balloon? J-8II?

unless there are F-15EX in USAF. the rest of F-15s are much older. they may not want to risk to high altitude flying closer to balloon.
I think single engine fighters like F-35 are much limited in performance.

This is probably why the US is so committed to getting India on its side no matter the costs, allowing Indians to essentially walk all over the US's face in terms of ignoring sanctions, telling the US to **** off with its demands, etc.
There are 3 Mideastern countries in India guest list of G-20. India enhance importance is due to its relations with Mideast.
People always pay attention Netanyahu statement about wars but not pay attention to all other statements.
 

tankphobia

Senior Member
Registered Member

jwnz

Junior Member
Registered Member
To be fair to the article, it does actually talk about this question:

"Chinese leaders today may be making the same error as past aspiring hegemons. And China, for all its growing might, starts from a less formidable position. At their peak in 1941, the Axis powers had a combined GDP larger than that of the U.S. and only a little smaller than the combined GDP of the U.S. and Britain. Today the U.S. and its allies and partners (which includes most of Europe, Japan, India, South Korea, Australia and others) produce over 50% of the world’s wealth, while China and Russia together produce a little over 20%."

You can question the inclusion of India in "allies and partners," but it is correct that the Axis powers had a combined GDP similar to that of US + Britain, and that China + Russia has a combined GDP less than that of NATO + Japan + South Korea, today.

But I think we're getting ahead of ourselves on this theory. The problem is rather two-fold: first, to make the US and its allies seem like the emerging power of today really requires putting India into the equation. Otherwise, all of NATO + Japan + South Korea are mature, declining powers, and even combined their population is < that of China, which was not the case for Allies vs Axis during World War 2. This is probably why the US is so committed to getting India on its side no matter the costs, allowing Indians to essentially walk all over the US's face in terms of ignoring sanctions, telling the US to **** off with its demands, etc.

Second, the Axis powers were actually capable of victory during World War 2. It was a series of poor strategic decisions - including the invasion of the Soviet Union by Germany and Japan's attempt to conquer all of China - that made it possible for the Americans and the British to prevail.

This is where the comparison with modern affairs totally collapses. Germany and Japan were trying to create VAST empires, to control populations and territories several times that of their imperial core. They became over stretched very quickly because of the nature of these goals. By the time the US was at Japan's door steps, a huge fraction of their military was still fighting knee deep on the front lines of China. They were never able to bring the full power of their military to bear on the US.

And Germany? Germany had it even worse because they made the historic decision to invade the Soviet Union, a much larger country with far more population. The Germans then ended up fighting on two-fronts against two great powers, both of which were larger than itself. No country could've won that fight.

But if the Germans were more conservative with their targets? If they settled for continental Western Europe only and made concessions to the Soviet Union? If the Japanese were content with South Korea and Taiwan and oil producing regions in Southeast Asia? Then World War 2 might've ended differently. If not for the Japanese, then at least for the Germans, since if the Soviet Union ended up being the "third party" to the war, then it's likely that they would've seen the US as equally threatening to the Communist agenda. Which would've forced a three-way stand off in which no party would've been able to prevail against the other two combined, and so there would've had to have been a settled peace.

The analogy with today is if NATO + Japan + South Korea ended up fighting against China + Russia and then the rest of the world, including India, decided to stay the **** out of the war. In fact, that's the most likely scenario, and with the limited ambitions of the China + Russia side, it's not at all obvious to me that it wouldn't result in a settled peace. If China stopped at Taiwan and Russia stopped at Ukraine, they'd never become over stretched, and so would be in much better positions compared to Japan and Germany to weather the war.

Ironically, the article even makes an implicit statement about this - that Imperial Japan and Nazi Germany should've been content with their initial success of becoming great powers - instead of pressing for much more. Well, I think that could also apply to China, since the desired world order for China is not a vast empire over Asia, but just a buffer zone against the US and its allies in the Pacific.
I would like to add that GDP nowadays includes so much from the service industry, which IMHO counts nothing in wartime. What good can Hollywood and KPop bring to the frontline when missiles start flying, the same goes to Wall Street.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
I would like to add that GDP nowadays includes so much from the service industry, which IMHO counts nothing in wartime. What good can Hollywood and KPop bring to the frontline when missiles start flying, the same goes to Wall Street.
The situation if anything is more comparable to Qing vs the British in the 1800s. The British economy was built on manufacturing and construction whereas the Qing economy was built on moving money between Asian dependencies.

And like back then, you have an arguably rising power except it is for all intentions already proven since a long time ago and has been active in setting global politics for much much longer than the declining power wants to admit, thus causing more friction than necessary.

Similarly, there is also a shifting population attitude within the "new" power due to the stumbling and exposed sickness of the old power.

Europeans used to worship Qing goods, buying them at a massive premium, while their intellectuals brought back imperial Chinese values of law and meritocracy to their homelands. But gradually, they realized that they were better at implementing these values than the Imperials themselves, and that their homemade goods were higher quality and cheaper at the same time.

Nowadays, Chinese are currently undergoing the same transformation, from the insecure public intellectuals who wanted to emulate western neoliberalism and unregulated markets, to believing that China does both democracy and markets with protection better.

Obviously it would be unfair to draw a direct comparison, because the success of the Imperial Europeans were largely down to slavery and industrial genocide, whereas modern China acquired a surplus mainly due to automization and product design. However, the end results are surprisingly similar, in terms of both acquiring an economy of construction, steel and factories, against their main rivals who rule using trade influence and services.
 
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