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Deleted member 23272

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Han and Tang both had their moments with native armies, especially the Han during the reign of Wu Di, but for the vast majority of their military history, it was "using barbarians to fight barbarians." China's military performance was historically pretty solid, but much of it was achieved via foreign vassals, not native armies. The Tang in particular was famous for its "barbarian" generals who ended up rebelling and destroying the empire.
Debateable, but for what its worth, if you're including the Eastern Empire, so was Rome for most of its history. Whatever the means, survival of the Empire is all that history judges. For all of both respective Empire's longevity, Rome didn't and China did.
 
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Deleted member 23272

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since when does military go by per capita?

Qatar superpower?
Correlation may not equal causation, but all I was saying is that a country's development level influences how much it can invest into developing its armed forces. Simply put China is developmentally similar to most Latin American countries and the higher end South East Asian countries outside of Singapore, yet just due to its sheer size manages to punch above its weight and indigineously develop high tech weaponry other countries of a similar development level are unable to and instead have to rely on Uncle Sam to provide for them if they can afford it without pissing off the populace. The only other middle income country with similar capabilities to China is Russia and they don't really count since they mostly inherited the Soviet Union's military legacy.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Correlation may not equal causation, but all I was saying is that a country's development level influences how much it can invest into developing its armed forces. Simply put China is developmentally similar to most Latin American countries and the higher end South East Asian countries outside of Singapore, yet just due to its sheer size manages to punch above its weight and indigineously develop high tech weaponry other countries of a similar development level are unable to and instead have to rely on Uncle Sam to provide for them if they can afford it without pissing off the populace. The only other middle income country with similar capabilities to China is Russia and they don't really count since they mostly inherited the Soviet Union's military legacy.
China also inherited it's own cold war military legacy. It's also not really comparable to any of those examples you talked about, because those countries don't have any affluent areas at all, while China is a continent sized country where some regions have similar development as west Europe, some have similar to east Europe and some have similar to Latin America.

A much more suitable comparison would be Europe. Europe has good areas like Germany and France, it also has shitty areas like the Baltics, Ukraine and Romania.

China is most accurately visualised as a continent with high income and middle income areas stacked together under one administration, sort of what EU would be like if EU actually ruled itself and the "European project" worked out as advertised.

Chinese tech sector is advanced because they have like 300-500 million people living under at least USA levels of development. The rest provide support and avenues for low hanging growth. That's not true for any other single country in the world, hence China doesn't really behave like them.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Correlation may not equal causation, but all I was saying is that a country's development level influences how much it can invest into developing its armed forces. Simply put China is developmentally similar to most Latin American countries and the higher end South East Asian countries outside of Singapore, yet just due to its sheer size manages to punch above its weight and indigineously develop high tech weaponry other countries of a similar development level are unable to and instead have to rely on Uncle Sam to provide for them if they can afford it without pissing off the populace. The only other middle income country with similar capabilities to China is Russia and they don't really count since they mostly inherited the Soviet Union's military legacy.
really?

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16 Italy
17 China
18 France

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Patent Resident filings per 100 billion USD GDP

Country Number Rank
China 5,738.4 2

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Patent Resident applications per million inhabitants

Country Number Rank
China 1,010.1 4

Can you point to where
most Latin American countries and the higher end South East Asian countries
are on the list of patents per capita, patents per GDP and economic complexity?

what about Nature Index, can you point to where they are?

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How about developmental indices like average lifespan or maternal mortality?
 
D

Deleted member 23272

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really?

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16 Italy
17 China
18 France

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Patent Resident filings per 100 billion USD GDP

Country Number Rank
China 5,738.4 2

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Patent Resident applications per million inhabitants

Country Number Rank
China 1,010.1 4

Can you point to where

are on the list of patents per capita, patents per GDP and economic complexity?

what about Nature Index, can you point to where they are?

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How about developmental indices like average lifespan or maternal mortality?
I'm just saying that to any average person who simply looks at per capita gdp and HDI, that's the picture you get for China's development level regardless of its position as the world's second biggest economy. I don't know what point you're trying to prove here. China just due to its size has pockets of prosperity comparable to the global north, but on a whole is still a middle income developing country.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
I'm just saying that to any average person who simply looks at per capita gdp and HDI, that's the picture you get for China's development level regardless of its position as the world's second biggest economy.
There isn't any bigger economy unless you somehow count NATO as one economy, which you really shouldn't because their mutual economic integration is not good at all.
 

fatzergling

Junior Member
Registered Member
China also inherited it's own cold war military legacy. It's also not really comparable to any of those examples you talked about, because those countries don't have any affluent areas at all, while China is a continent sized country where some regions have similar development as west Europe, some have similar to east Europe and some have similar to Latin America.

A much more suitable comparison would be Europe. Europe has good areas like Germany and France, it also has shitty areas like the Baltics, Ukraine and Romania.

China is most accurately visualized as a continent with high income and middle income areas stacked together under one administration, sort of what EU would be like if EU actually ruled itself and the "European project" worked out as advertised.
Chinese development shouldn't be understood as one giant landmass of 12k GDP per capita. Rather, there are a few places with 25-30k GDP per capita, and a lot of places with 5-7k GDP per capita. In other words, plenty of Chinese are living in first world conditions, while many more Chinese are waiting to catch up. It also explains why China can develop state of the art technology in many fields with a relatively low GDP per capita: many of these developments are coming out of places like Shanghai and Shenzhen, which have GDP per capita of 25k and 33k respectively. You could say that China right now contains the equivalent of 2-3 Japans in terms of people living in high-income areas. Furthermore, given that many of the areas with 5-7k GDP per capita are playing catch up, you can only expect to see the amount of innovation and developments to only increase in the next 20 years.
I'm just saying that to any average person who simply looks at per capita gdp and HDI, that's the picture you get for China's development level regardless of its position as the world's second biggest economy. I don't know what point you're trying to prove here. China just due to its size has pockets of prosperity comparable to the global north, but on a whole is still a middle income developing country.
Having a consistently higher growth rate than Latin American, ASEAN, and Eastern European countries despite being at their GDP per capita level should give you a hint that the Chinese economy is structurally different compared to those economies. For example, Mexico has failed to match China's growth rate in 2021 despite having nominally similar GDP per capita.
Clues to other factors, like urbanization rate, electricity generation, can give a clue to the puzzle. China's urbanization rate is much much lower than Brazil or Mexico, meaning that more productivity can be generated by moving workers from farm to factory. Critical infrastructure like electricity and telecom is also generally more developed in China. The combination of a more developed infrastructure and cheaper consumer goods (China has domestically-manufactured substitute goods for most items) gives an impression that life in China is better than many countries of similar GDP per capita. Furthermore, for the above structural reasons, China in the next 10 years is predicted to leapfrog all these countries despite (initially) having similar GDP per capita. A future GDP per capita benchmark to look at would be Portugal, which Chinese leaders claim they can match at 2035.
 

Phead128

Major
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
I think Yellen is just giving out loud words for US domestic audience and China knows this. Yellen isn't career politician, she doesn't need to come to China to grandstand like Blinken, see 玉渊谭天's two detailed explanation posts
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Yellen will likely go back to Washington to persuade Biden to "not extend the soon expiring tariffs", then maybe China will sell less US treasuries.
Exactly. China knows this quip is for US domestic audience and US media to regurgitate. Everything behind closed doors is likely far more conciliatory than what is stretched and exaggerated by Western media.
 

emblem21

Major
Registered Member
Exactly. China knows this quip is for US domestic audience and US media to regurgitate. Everything behind closed doors is likely far more conciliatory than what is stretched and exaggerated by Western media.
I wouldn’t bet on things improving so quickly if at all, Biden has made his points load and clear. I dont think a real return to normal will occur with the way the Western media and Biden continues their madness. The best we can expect is a continuation of a slow burn that will ultimately mean a worsening of the economy and the welfare of the popularize continue its downward trend.
Whether China continues to sell the U.S. treasuries don’t just depend on relations but also on the condition of the U.S. economy as well which is something only Biden can try to fix and this will involve a cut to military spending which will never happen. So the best China can do is manage their own interest without needing to do any hard moves while Yellen tries to do her thing and then get sabotaged by her boss, just like Blinken. China shouldn’t have to continue to take it on the chin just to satisfy a nation of babies and whiners so ultimately, the day will come where the USA cannot afford this, pretend to be nice to you while plotting to kill you routine, and on that day, they have to learn to behave or else
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
China would be willing to pay some amounts for peace if necessary.

In the realistic world, international law isn't ironclad. And when you're talking about negotiating with someone that has nukes, even if they're your inferior in hard power, the truth is that China still needs to give them some leeway.

Power doesn't come from liquid reserves but from societal development. Those who own market share and factories are much better off development wise than those who only have money. Money is only worth anything if it can be put into circulation to improve the local economy. If a cash infusion just ends up being used to pay for foreign goods, the end benefactor will be the foreigners and the local oligarchs, not the 99.9% of locals. Basically, just look at all the "aid" to Africa and how much those sums actually ended up improving said countries.

If paying off to America with investments is what's needed to keep the peace and scale back American aggression, that's just 1 more tool available to China. There's no way US can catch up or surpass China by using China's own directed investments.

Let America have cash, as long as they can trade reasonable security guarantees for it. I don't believe for a second American workers, American innovators, can use that cash even remotely as effectively as their Chinese counterparts anyways.
 
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