China's TFR isn't where it is because of "extreme feminism" or beta/gamma/lambda/whatever letter from the Greek alphabet men not "manning up" and getting married. That's a caricature of the problem. Couples are choosing not to have children for completely sensible economic reasons.
I didn't follow the back-and-forth here. Where I came in was when you mocked
@eprash for a naïve proposal that was nonetheless in the right direction. A scientific solution doesn't need to entail sci-fi technologies like artificial wombs or technology far from ready for human application like germline gene editing. A practical solution in that spirit with today's technologies would be a program of mass IVF and surrogacy, with gametes gathered from a broad swath of the Chinese population and surrogates drawn from the world's poor. Instead of editing individual embryos with a tool like CRISPR, the donors would be sequenced and AI used to determine optimal combinations. The children resulting from this program would be raised in state-run orphanages and boarding schools.
That's a solution that matches the magnitude of the problem, not Andrew Tate University courses in "masculinity."
You're the one who put them in opposition by saying technology isn't meant to turn having children into the Matrix/Borg Collective. It might come to just that; it might be that for China to become the power it should be, it'll have to turn into that. If, because "traditional values" will fail to arrest the birth decline as they have failed at everything else, the choice is between becoming another Japan or the Borg, I'll happily take the Borg.
To reiterate, the problem isn't men being too cucked by feminists to talk to women. The problem is that people in otherwise healthy relationships choose not to have children because they don't want to deal with their hassle and can't afford them.
OK so you didn't follow the conversation but jumped in anyway. Here is the context:
1. A group of people were talking about radical feminism and how screwed Korea is. But it is also present in China, though in a lower concentration.
2. Vincent says Chinese men should just find foreign women, problem solved.
3. I said, no, Chinese men and women need to work together, love each other and have Chinese children. That is the fabric of Chinese society.
4. Eprash goes, eh, screw that, just use artificial wombs. Essentially, it means to completely give in to radical feminism and start a gender war in China making sex and marriage all unnecessary. That's his uber hikikomori solution over Chinese society working out its gender grievances.
5. I, of course, disagreed because there is just absolutely no reason to terminate the biological complimentary bond between men and women just because the evolution of modern society is presenting some challenges.
That's when you come in, thinking that we were talking about how to raise the TFR, which is relevent but downstream from the conversation which is as simple as working out the issues and holding on the the love between man and woman instead of escalating the differences and grievances until all Chinese people try to find foreign mates or artificial wombs. It's that simple.
Raising the TFR is another issue and very important. We should do all we can to solve the problem. Artificial wombs are a great technology to help that goal, not to turn Chinese society into a Borg Colony but to allow couples who could not conceive to conceive and to relieve the strain from women so they don't feel like a child will ruin their careers and wreck their bodies. I support this technology very much in this context, NOT as a substitute to excuse people to tear up social interaction and family structure, but as an assistive technology to further the Chinese family. As I said before with Solarz, my wife and I got over 10 surrogates with many failing physician checks and some failing the implantation procedure, costing us valuable embryos. If there were artificial wombs that we can use to ensure that every condition is primed for our embryos, we would happily break the bank to use them.
And if we back up a million steps and go to an apocalyptic scenerio where the Chinese population is decimated from low TFR rate and every effort made to reverse it has failed, then yes, as a last resource, I support the use of artificial wombs to keep us Chinese in existance. As long as we live, there is a chance for a glorious future. Natural family over Borg Colony, but Borg Colony over extinction anyday.