Miscellaneous News

solarz said:

It doesn't work that way.

Africa is rich in resources. Before the coming of China, the West has a monopoly over the exploitation of this resource. The arrival of China offers a competitive choice to workers, which is beneficial to the African people.

Yet, if an African politician fails to receive his cut from a Chinese business and thereby prevents the Chinese business from operating, it would be the African people who suffer in the end.

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Love how you spin. You are short-sighted by being blind to the effects of corruption. But there's more, but that's for another time.

Again, you're not getting it.

Western firms control Africa through a number of methods: financial, military, political. France literally controls the economy of all Francafrique nations. Western firms hold monopolistic resource contracts in many nations, making them the sole benefactor of those resources, and they can instigate military coups against any government that tries to change this.

China is not remotely in any position to do any of the above.

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You don't get it. It's money that controls the "financial, the military, political". You can control without bribing. And why would Chinese firms need to control so much to win contracts. It's not possible. They just need to bribe the key people. Bribing the least number of people is an important part of the game.

First of all, is that claim substantiated by any kind of evidence?

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Tanzania did not want to invite Chinese firms to build their railway after what they saw in Kenya. There was a report of a communication firm offering a bribe(with proof of documents) on a South Pacific island. Also, we should take strong rumors seriously, which is also the way the anti-corruption bureau of any country operates. @Topazchen posted an article about a tender being canceled. While it does not suggest any impropriety on the Chinese side, it taints a little bit.

Second, it's not just big project SOE that are in Africa. Plenty of private Chinese enterprises also operate and employ workers there. They most certainly need to operate according to local rules, both the written and the unwritten kind, in order to compete.

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You can't have a system where the state encourages corruption to win contracts. If China could win fairly the Jakarta-Bandung bullet train project and so many other projects in the developed nations, it could still win the lion's share of contracts in Africa.

What the Chinese government should do is to ban bribery by the SOEs. Win some, lose some. See how much. Modify or abandon strategy if necessary. Corruption is something that is binary. But the Chinese strategy need not be binary until there is a consensus among the African nations to get on board the new way of doing business. We can watch the outcome of the next Sino-African summit as @Overbom has suggested.

t2contra said:

Love how you spin. You are short-sighted by being blind to the effects of corruption. But there's more, but that's for another time.

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China has had corruption along with its rapid development for 30 years. Looks to me like it came out just fine.

It's also funny how you think I'm "spinning", when the fact is Western colonial powers have been exploiting Africa for centuries, Western firms use corrupt politicians and military leaders to do their bidding all the time, and you think China is doing harm by offering an alternative?

t2contra said:

You don't get it. It's money that controls the "financial, the military, political". You can control without bribing. And why would Chinese firms need to control so much to win contracts. It's not possible. They just need to bribe the key people. Bribing the least number of people is an important part of the game.

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So you're saying now Chinese firm do need to bribe officials, they just need to be more strategic about it? LOL!

t2contra said:

Tanzania did not want to invite Chinese firms to build their railway after what they saw in Kenya. There was a report of a communication firm offering a bribe(with proof of documents) on a South Pacific island. Also, we should take strong rumors seriously, which is also the way the anti-corruption bureau of any country operates. @Topazchen posted an article about a tender being canceled. While it does not suggest any impropriety on the Chinese side, it taints a little bit.

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Ummm... no, I asked you if you had any evidence that China can win a "disporprotionate number of contracts in a fair fight", which according to you, apparently means without any kind of under-the-table activity even when it's par for the course in that country.

All the while Western firms need to abide by any such restrictions. Seems to me more like giving China a severe handicap.

As for the isolated incidents you brought up, Africa is a huge continent. There are 54 countries and 1.2 billion people, of which Tanzania makes up only 60 million.

Those 54 countries are all free to trade with China or not, for whatever reason they deem valid. That's the difference between China and the colonial powers.

t2contra said:

You can't have a system where the state encourages corruption to win contracts. If China could win fairly the Jakarta-Bandung bullet train project and so many other projects in the developed nations, it could still win the lion's share of contracts in Africa.

What the Chinese government should do is to ban bribery by the SOEs. Win some, lose some. See how much. Modify or abandon strategy if necessary. Corruption is something that is binary. But the Chinese strategy need not be binary until there is a consensus among the African nations to get on board the new way of doing business. We can watch the outcome of the next Sino-African summit as @Overbom has suggested.

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Since when is the state encouraging corruption? Chinese businesses do what they need to do. If a key politician in Africa has been in Western pockets for years, it's only natural that Chinese businesses offer an incentive for him to switch camp.

Wow! If Alec Baldwin was horsing around, this is the end of his acting career.

AssassinsMace said:

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Wow! If Alec Baldwin was horsing around, this is the end of his acting career.

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What career?

solarz said:

China has had corruption along with its rapid development for 30 years. Looks to me like it came out just fine.

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LOL. You're fine with corruption, no shit.

It's also funny how you think I'm "spinning", when the fact is Western colonial powers have been exploiting Africa for centuries, Western firms use corrupt politicians and military leaders to do their bidding all the time, and you think China is doing harm by offering an alternative?

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So China's alternative is more corruption?

So you're saying now Chinese firm do need to bribe officials, they just need to be more strategic about it? LOL!

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I wrote that because you wrote:"Western firms control Africa through a number of methods: financial, military, political." Why would China have to bribe so many people in various departments?

Ummm... no, I asked you if you had any evidence that China can win a "disporprotionate number of contracts in a fair fight", which according to you, apparently means without any kind of under-the-table activity even when it's par for the course in that country.

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You, as a jingoistic member here is asking me for evidence that China can win a "disporprotionate number of contracts in a fair fight"?
I would have expected you to know that in the technological areas where China has mastered, it has become the world's top producer. EVs, port cranes, ships, steel, etc. These are the heavy industries that supply the material needed for infrastructure. Evidence, no, I don't have time to google. But use your judgment.

All the while Western firms need to abide by any such restrictions. Seems to me more like giving China a severe handicap.

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If they are, then business scruples dictate the Chinese firms have to. If they are not, do you have evidence when competing with the Chinese?

As for the isolated incidents you brought up, Africa is a huge continent. There are 54 countries and 1.2 billion people, of which Tanzania makes up only 60 million.

Those 54 countries are all free to trade with China or not, for whatever reason they deem valid. That's the difference between China and the colonial powers

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Are their trades controlled by their colonial powers now?

Since when is the state encouraging corruption? Chinese businesses do what they need to do. If a key politician in Africa has been in Western pockets for years, it's only natural that Chinese businesses offer an incentive for him to switch camp.

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Isn't China perpetuating the corruption crime? The crime we have been accusing the West of committing? Then we lose our moral ground. We win the sanctimonious ground. Because the West committed crimes against humanity, we are entitled to do the same mentality does not cut it.

We Chinese are a new kind of superpower, one that is benign and not exploitative. We take back what should be ours, but hit back if bullied.

t2contra said:

LOL. You're fine with corruption, no shit.


So China's alternative is more corruption?


I wrote that because you wrote:"Western firms control Africa through a number of methods: financial, military, political." Why would China have to bribe so many people in various departments?


You, as a jingoistic member here is asking me for evidence that China can win a "disporprotionate number of contracts in a fair fight"?
I would have expected you to know that in the technological areas where China has mastered, it has become the world's top producer. EVs, port cranes, ships, steel, etc. These are the heavy industries that supply the material needed for infrastructure. Evidence, no, I don't have time to google. But use your judgment.


If they are, then business scruples dictate the Chinese firms have to. If they are not, do you have evidence when competing with the Chinese?



Are their trades controlled by their colonial powers now?


Isn't China perpetuating the corruption crime? The crime we have been accusing the West of committing? Then we lose our moral ground. We win the sanctimonious ground. Because the West committed crimes against humanity, we are entitled to do the same mentality does not cut it.

We Chinese are a new kind of superpower, one that is benign and not exploitative. We take back what should be ours, but hit back if bullied.

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Wah wah, corruption bad!

Seriously, getting tired of this bullshit now. Western colonial powers have exploited Africans for centuries, and are still exploiting them today in many African nations, and your biggest concern is that China is perpetuating corruption? LOL!

Yeah, I'm fine with corruption when it brings with it economic development and rising standards of living.

solarz said:

Wah wah, corruption bad!

Seriously, getting tired of this bullshit now. Western colonial powers have exploited Africans for centuries, and are still exploiting them today in many African nations, and your biggest concern is that China is perpetuating corruption? LOL!

Yeah, I'm fine with corruption when it brings with it economic development and rising standards of living.

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He ate up the propaganda. Its obvious

Western companies = saints
Chinese companies = devil

Western companies = protect "human rights"
Chinese companies = exploiting the people

Western companies = invest with no corruption
Chinese companies = invest with a lot of corruption

His arguments are comically naive. I feel we are all wasting our time with trying to let him understand the ground realities in these countries. Let him live in his own *western* utopia where corruption doesn't exist lol

solarz said:

Wah wah, corruption bad!

Seriously, getting tired of this bullshit now. Western colonial powers have exploited Africans for centuries, and are still exploiting them today in many African nations, and your biggest concern is that China is perpetuating corruption? LOL!

Yeah, I'm fine with corruption when it brings with it economic development and rising standards of living.

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You are wasting your time I’m afraid. It’s easy to tell he is just parroting western self serving condensing BS that pats themselves on the part while at the same time puts down the coloured folk and keep them down from a development prospective so western markets can continue to enjoy access to cheap materials and labour when it suits them.

Its a testament to how hollow and useless the western give-a-man-a-fish-when-we-want-to-feel-good-about-ourselves development model has failed that China has delivered far more tangible benefits to exponentially more people in a few short years than the west has managed in decades since the end of colonialism.

The west is only alarmed and dismayed with Chinese actions in Africa because it is working and showing up how poorly they themselves have performed. When most of their own much vaunted and hyped development aid ends up being clawed back by western firms that deliver extremely poor value for money and zero means for Africa to break out of the terrible perpetual cycle of needing western ‘aid’ to avoid calamity.

The western model of development for Africa is in essence the same as what human trafficking gangs do when they get women hooked on drugs so they are forced to continue to prostitute themselves for their next fix, forever.

But no, certain members here see nothing wrong when western nations and companies make tens of billions of aid money deliver next to nothing for the people that money was meant to help but instead want to make a hill out of a molehill about unfounded allegations made by the western MSM about alleged Chinese corrupt practices.

Hell, if China made a serious effort to stamp out corruption in Africa, I will bet you any amount of money that those self same western MSM paper wasters would be harping on about ‘Chinese colonialism’ in Africa. Not that they haven’t tried that angle already.

plawolf said:

The western model of development for Africa is in essence the same as what human trafficking gangs do when they get women hooked on drugs so they are forced to continue to prostitute themselves for their next fix, forever.

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This is the MO of all anglo and western nations; ever since the anglos discovered they could get Chinese hooked on opium, they've been on a tear doing it to latin americans and getting third world nations hooked on their own western brand of spiritual opium ie the prospect of coming to the west to live as a house slave like a weaponised immigrant.

taxiya said:

What do you mean by "not Russia"? China has a long term contract with Russia. I think Beijing's heating gas is from Russia for the moment.

The article is merely saying that China increased US gas import, nothing about any other source.

Note, it is not practical nor preferable to totally deny US gas so long as the two are still trading with one another.

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OK thanks. I didn't realize there is already has contract with Russia so I felt strange china went with US. Although in hindsight, it may also have to do with trade deal