Miscellaneous News

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
I have doubt Nato can fight conventional war with Russia. how easily France was evicted from Africa and still Macron smiles and bows infront of Arabs. .
It is that picture by the water and CEPA agreement between UAE and Ukraine that keep that Zelensky alive and prolonging the conflict. that CEPA agreement came after many visits of Zelensky to UAE. so by now Arabs have good understanding of Ukraine. it is not like they want Zelensky for ever but still need to be compensated for all the past work.

View attachment 146293
Ukraine is not known for strong martial prowess or military technological sophistication and yet 3 years later Russia is only barely starting to make gains inside Ukraine. Contrast that with any major NATO country (France included) with far larger budgets and far more sophisticated weaponry, to speak nothing of all of NATO combined including US military forces. The Russian war machine is more effective now after 3 years, but in 2022 it would easily have been smoked by either NATO minus the US, or the US by itself, but US plus the rest of NATO combined would have steamrolled the Russian military all the way back to Russian borders in short order.

The fact of the initial ineptitude of the Russian military is clearly evidenced by the fact that Putin himself was utterly clueless of how dilapidated the Russian military was in 2022 and held a delusional belief that he could lightning strike into Kiev and decapitate the current leadership and replace it with a new Russia-friendly one. Instead what the entire world witnessed was a months-long 400km-long train of logistics-impaired line of military vehicles along the roads to Kiev, getting picked off slowly by Ukrainian forces before Putin was forced to withdraw them and begin a WW1-style trench-warfare high-casualty slow-crawl across the eastern Ukrainian oblasts.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Russia would not agree in principle or in action to allow NATO presence in Ukraine. Like ever. NATO imposing it without Russia's consent wouldn't happen if it hasn't happened already after 3 years. Not because NATO couldn't beat Russia conventionally, but because a Russia losing and backed against a wall will nuke, something Putin has said multiple times. If Russia did not have nukes like it does, a Russian invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022 would have immediately been followed by a NATO invasion of Ukraine in March of 2022, followed by a NATO rout of all Russian forces in Ukraine by the end of the month. Actually, if Russia did not have nukes, Ukraine would already be part of NATO, or even worse for Russia, Russia would already have been balkanized by NATO. As it stands, nobody in NATO truly wants to test Russian nuclear resolve even as they care little about Russia's conventional forces.
actually no.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

NATO can't even enforce its will on Yemen. What's the ratio of budgets there?

Before you start coping by saying that's the Saudi's fault, a soldier just follows orders, whether that be from their equipment manufacturer, or from their commanders. The final responsibility always lies with the commanders and the equipment manufacturers. Guess who those are?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
actually no.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

NATO can't even enforce its will on Yemen. What's the ratio of budgets there?

Before you start coping by saying that's the Saudi's fault, a soldier just follows orders, whether that be from their equipment manufacturer, or from their commanders. The final responsibility always lies with the commanders and the equipment manufacturers. Guess who those are?

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Depends on what you mean by "enforce its will", because there are no NATO troops on the ground in Yemen. If its will was to invade Yemen formally and turn it into a parking lot, then its will would have been enforced. Hands down. Instead it's doing the normal half-assed "make other people enforce your will" thing, which pretty much never works out, just like it's not working out in Ukraine. If NATO had ever truly wanted to "WMDs, kill kill kill!" Yemen Iraq-style, Yemen would be a parking lot this very day.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Depends on what you mean by "enforce its will", because there are no NATO troops on the ground in Yemen. If its will was to invade Yemen formally and turn it into a parking lot, then its will would have been enforced. Hands down. Instead it's doing the normal half-assed "make other people enforce your will" thing, which pretty much never works out, just like it's not working out in Ukraine. If NATO had ever truly wanted to "WMD!" Yemen Iraq-style, Yemen would be a parking lot this very day.
you actually don't know that. what if they refrain from doing so to cut their losses while placating the Saudis? My point of view has equal evidence to yours - none - but at least has 1 historical precedent.

the closest example is Vietnam where 10k US planes got shot down and they were even losing tactical engagements like Operation Linebacker with a 1:2 loss ratio despite having 50x the GDP and 10x the population.

That's what failing looks like.
 

pmc

Major
Registered Member
This should be required reading for everyone in this forum, translated into Chinese, and reposted as required reading too.
see this part. USSR had problem with the system. US has problem with human capital. they are not similar at all.
who else will know about these things than who created greatest wealth in human history and certainly not some one from Sweden who barely recognize there own problems.
Just this IDEX show in UAE where Russia bring the nicest things even if they not sell. because it is this UAE that Post Soviet Russian history of not just wealth creation starts.

To a student of human history, the woeful state of America’s national security establishment does not appear as some sort of great mystery. It is far from unique; in fact, it might not even be noteworthy. It is just the normal stuff of human history, going back thousands of years. The USSR is still very much in living memory; what went on in that empire in its final decade wasn’t all that different from what is happening in America today.

 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
you actually don't know that. what if they refrain from doing so to cut their losses while placating the Saudis? My point of view has equal evidence to yours - none - but at least has 1 historical precedent.

the closest example is Vietnam where 10k US planes got shot down and they were even losing tactical engagements like Operation Linebacker with a 1:2 loss ratio despite having 50x the GDP and 10x the population.

That's what failing looks like.
My counterexample is pretty much every country the US has ever invaded since WW2, including Afghanistan and Iraq. The point is that if you were fighting a conventional war against the US, you would have lost. Period. Afghanistan was subsequently lost (from the US POV) because the insurgents fought an unconventional war, something which the US cannot deal with effectively. Russia would not be able to fight such a war inside Ukraine because it's the invader and the local population would not be a source of insurgents and would absolutely side with the US/NATO. It would have had to fight a conventional war against the US/NATO, and it would have lost. Badly.

When you hamstring and half-ass yourself on purpose, like for example in Vietnam where the US never formally invaded North Vietnam with troops, or like in Ukraine, or like in Yemen, then you tend to not do so well. In the particular case of Vietnam it was both the US hamstringing itself combined with the difficulties of insurgency-style warfare that finally did the US in and caused it to fold like a lawn chair. The US population more and more turning against the war also did nothing to help the US military ramping up or even continuing the conflict.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Russia would not agree in principle or in action to allow NATO presence in Ukraine. Like ever. NATO imposing it without Russia's consent wouldn't happen if it hasn't happened already after 3 years. Not because NATO couldn't beat Russia conventionally, but because a Russia losing and backed against a wall will nuke, something Putin has said multiple times. If Russia did not have nukes like it does, a Russian invasion of Ukraine in February of 2022 would have immediately been followed by a NATO invasion of Ukraine in March of 2022, followed by a NATO rout of all Russian forces in Ukraine by the end of the month. Actually, if Russia did not have nukes, Ukraine would already be part of NATO, or even worse for Russia, Russia would already have been balkanized by NATO. As it stands, nobody in NATO truly wants to test Russian nuclear resolve even as they care little about Russia's conventional forces.

What kool aid have you been drinking to think NATO without America would do any better than Ukraine against Russia? Hell, most of European NATO have already basically cannibalised their own ground forces to supply Ukraine and all that achieved was get all that heavy weapons chewed up by the Russians. And thats the Russians fighting alone without Chinese lethal aid.

NATO’s much vaunted air power is precisely what the Russians have spent their lion share of their air force budget to counter, at the expense of the ground attack capability of its fighters. So NATO getting directly involved would actually suit the Russians much better, since they would be able to openly attack all the NATO recon assets working as part of Ukraine’s kill chain at point blank ranges to boost the effectiveness of Ukraine’s NATO weapons. Something that would actually be impossible for them to do if they were directly engaged formally.

Additionally, if NATO fought Russia directly and openly, at a minimum China will provide massive lethal aid to Russia. America would need to fully commit to the European theatre to prevent the Russians steamrolling Western Europe, not the other way around. China would be more than happy to bleed America white in such a scenario acting as Russia’s weapons manufacturing base. It’s basically a worst case scenario loosing strategy for NATO.
 

Biscuits

Colonel
Registered Member
Ukraine is not known for strong martial prowess or military technological sophistication
Besides Russia they actually have the most USSR hand me downs by far. The systems they have are in huge quantities, once upon a time earmarked for an all out ground war against NATO.

So they're about as good as you can find in Europe. Maybe not in the most advanced systems, however war has never been about the top 10% advanced systems, but about the sheer numbers of the rest 90% and how well trained/motivated your men are with those.
and yet 3 years later Russia is only barely starting to make gains inside Ukraine. Contrast that with any major NATO country (France included) with far larger budgets and far more sophisticated weaponry,
France is in isolation not much more advanced than Ukraine, and it has far less numerous IADS/afvs/artillery etc. I don't think the French army for example could hold the Donbass against the AFU.
to speak nothing of all of NATO combined including US military forces. The Russian war machine is more effective now after 3 years, but in 2022 it would easily have been smoked by either NATO minus the US, or the US by itself, but US plus the rest of NATO combined would have steamrolled the Russian military all the way back to Russian borders in short order.
Russia would dig in and it would still take months to slowly grind them back, even if its Russia alone. The issue has always been that overt NATO counterattack would not only risk nukes (which tbh would be easy to talk down Putin from), but also invoke the Korean war threshold and make China send it's own volunteers/equipment.

Say US and EU attacks Russia after 2022. Russians run back to their trenches and IADS. Suddenly, it's NATO men dying and NATO infrastructure being blown up while China just supplies weapons and specialists. A DF26 in Caucasia can destroy ships in all of the Med. Hell, you'd have oreshnik/DF attacks all over the European heartland, which Europe cannot really stop.

NATO cannot afford invoking that threshold.
The fact of the initial ineptitude of the Russian military is clearly evidenced by the fact that Putin himself was utterly clueless of how dilapidated the Russian military was in 2022 and held a delusional belief that he could lightning strike into Kiev and decapitate the current leadership and replace it with a new Russia-friendly one. Instead what the entire world witnessed was a months-long 400km-long train of logistics-impaired line of military vehicles along the roads to Kiev, getting picked off slowly by Ukrainian forces before Putin was forced to withdraw them and begin a WW1-style trench-warfare high-casualty slow-crawl across the eastern Ukrainian oblasts.
The Russian military was objectively fairly decent readiness, as far as peacetime European militaries go. Any other NATO besides US would have not been able to take ground against a decently well equipped million man force. Russia is not competing in the same weight category as US, let alone China. If you look at the industrial output, there is a maybe 5-10x lower capability for Russia vs US and up to 100x lower vs China.

Trying to judge them on the same merit is pointless, Russia does it job good enough as China's version of the Non-US NATO. There was never any plan to make Russia anything more. They can't sustain more economically.

Just by trimming the fat better, we've already gotten a Russia that does better than all the western Europeans combined at fighting. That's above expectation, since Russia has lower gdp compared to all of them together.
 
Top