Military situation in the sino-indian border

manqiangrexue said:

[...]In my opinion, China must be easily stronger than its Western rivals (particularly the US) by a healthy margin before it initiates this challenge and when the hour is upon us, it should do so with unbend-able conviction and power. [...]

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I understand your apprehensions, yet I do not sympathize, nor do I agree with your analyses (not that agreement is necessary in the exchange of ideas). In the struggle for survival, the weaker must often challenge the stronger in order to simply survive. That's a natural fact, or rather, a fact of nature, of which there innumerable examples! In those instances, strength is ultimately determined, post-event, by victory/survival, rather than by pre-event circumstances (not that these may not exert considerable influence) that are based, solely, on quantifiable/measurable metrics. Are there no Badgers in China?

China may never be "'stronger' than its Western rivals (particularly the US) by a healthy margin". My prediction is that it will not. Does this mean that China should never challenge the 'stronger' even if it jeopardizes Chinese survival? My prediction is it will!

sanblvd said:

What does pissing off the whole West accomplish for China? Respect, I'm afraid China's ego is not as fragile as you think.

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I'm neither speaking of egos, nor responding from ego. You are! It's obvious that your inferiority complex suffering ego is far too overly invested in this exchange and this impels you to use emotion-based language and to make childish accusations "so stop acting like your feeling got hurt when US don't give China the respect it deserves". The US, when did I ever single out the US as having disrespected China? Therefore, as you are, as of yet, incapable of mature conceptual engagement, you have graduated to the Ignore List.
Congratulations!

Anyways, whether, or not, China chooses to sell arms to Iran is irrelevant to the military situation at the sino-indian border. So, will the next moderator to visit this thread please delete my posts numbered: 134, 136, 139, 141, and 142, as they add nothing to this subject.

Thank you!

sanblvd said:

No need to use nukes, if nuking of troops get out of hand, then nuking of cities might be next, and Chinese cities are much more valuable than Indian cities.

China can defeat Indian army conventionally using its own army if situation have come to that.

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Get out of hand? Unless they are stupid or insane. Getting to Chinese major cities has to traverse long distance and more liable to be intercepted whereas New Delhi close to the border, it can be annihilated by cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles.
Besides tactical nuke is served as deterrence same as strategic. It will deter large army from advancing.

james smith esq said:

I'm neither speaking of egos, nor responding from ego. You are! It's obvious that your inferiority complex suffering ego is far too overly invested in this exchange and this impels you to use emotion-based language and to make childish accusations "so stop acting like your feeling got hurt when US don't give China the respect it deserves". The US, when did I ever single out the US as having disrespected China? Therefore, as you are, as of yet, incapable of mature conceptual engagement, you have graduated to the Ignore List.
Congratulations!

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LOL, ok then, I'm not going to reply to a obvious flame bait post, let everyone who have read our post judge for themselves.

james smith esq said:

I understand your apprehensions, yet I do not sympathize, nor do I agree with your analyses (not that agreement is necessary in the exchange of ideas). In the struggle for survival, the weaker must often challenge the stronger in order to simply survive. That's a natural fact, or rather, a fact of nature, of which there innumerable examples! In those instances, strength is ultimately determined, post-event, by victory/survival, rather than by pre-event circumstances (not that these may not exert considerable influence) that are based, solely, on quantifiable/measurable metrics. Are there no Badgers in China?

China may never be "'stronger' than its Western rivals (particularly the US) by a healthy margin". My prediction is that it will not. Does this mean that China should never challenge the 'stronger' even if it jeopardizes Chinese survival? My prediction is it will!

Click to expand...

China does challenge the West every day with its actions, in the SCS, in the east sea, in Korea, basically everywhere. But it is measured, a mild form of brinkmanship. China has done so in the Korean War, and in the Vietnam War as far back as 1950. However, neither China to the West nor the West to China have presented existential threats (except on Taiwan which the West may not fully realize but are starting to feel the gravity of), which would trigger the instinct to fight to the death, stronger or weaker. The problem with Iran and NK is that they're stupid and can't control their mouths. They openly declared that their goal is to wipe a country from the face of the earth, and that is an existential threat, no matter how small. If you openly support this, you trigger fight-to-the-death instinct. Nobody is really ready for this in a world with MAD.

Why are you so pessimistic on China's ability to grow and develop? Chinese tech and innovation are growing like day old calves despite already being at the pinnacle of the world in many areas! Today, I read that China is having success with teleportation!! With setting up quantum communications! Exascale/quantum computers! And these are just the ones that are public. Nothing erodes a traditional edge like new technology force multipliers. These trends show me great hope that China has the potential to dominate the future. What good are aircraft carriers when China can teleport them into the middle of the desert (I know I'm reaching like crazy on that one but I'm just giving an example)? Stealth fighters when they can be seen clear as day by single-photon discerning radar? Nuclear submarines when their communications and guidance are blacked out? Nuclear command centers when their computer systems are at the mercy of being hacked by machines that are superior by orders of magnitude? I have confidence that China can achieve this future and humble any would-be foe into peaceful submission.

tidalwave said:

Get out of hand? Unless they are stupid or insane. Getting to Chinese major cities has to traverse long distance and more liable to be intercepted whereas New Delhi close to the border, it can be annihilated by cruise missiles, and ballistic missiles.
Besides tactical nuke is served as deterrence same as strategic. It will deter large army from advancing.

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There is a reason cold war stay cold, what you are talking about is the concept of a limited nuclear war, where each side only uses nuclear weapons on other's military or strategic targets, but in the end it was judged that the chances of escalation would get out of control, so in the end tactical nuclear weapons on the battle fields were taken just as seriously as ICBM nukes.

I totally understand why Pakistan needs to do this, they have less manpower than India, and weaker military compare to India, China is the opposite, Chinese military isn't inferior in number and capability than India in every single way. So its not in China's interest to bring nuclear weapons to the battlefield.

btw, Indian missile can reach all of China by now, its true they have to travel longer and might be intercepted by China, but it takes 1 missile to reach Beijing and you would have 20 million causality, its not worth it.

sanblvd said:

btw, Indian missile can reach all of China by now, its true they have to travel longer and might be intercepted by China, but it takes 1 missile to reach Beijing and you would have 20 million causality, its not worth it.

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Agree with everything above; China has such superiority over India that it can afford to be patient and see how things play out. But this last paragraph, I really don't think India or Beijing would ever launch the first nuke. Beijing because it would be a war crime and it doesn't even need to to win decisively. India because they know they're gonna be extinct and India's gonna be Chinese territory (not that it's that savory with all the monsoons and burning trash heaps and shit).

manqiangrexue said:

China does challenge the West every day with its actions, in the SCS, in the east sea, in Korea, basically everywhere. But it is measured, a mild form of brinkmanship. China has done so in the Korean War, and in the Vietnam War as far back as 1950. However, neither China to the West nor the West to China have presented existential threats (except on Taiwan which the West may not fully realize but are starting to feel the gravity of), which would trigger the instinct to fight to the death, stronger or weaker. The problem with Iran and NK is that they're stupid and can't control their mouths. They openly declared that their goal is to wipe a country from the face of the earth, and that is an existential threat, no matter how small. If you openly support this, you trigger fight-to-the-death instinct. Nobody is really ready for this in a world with MAD.

Why are you so pessimistic on China's ability to grow and develop? Chinese tech and innovation are growing like day old calves despite already being at the pinnacle of the world in many areas! Today, I read that China is having success with teleportation!! With setting up quantum communications! Exascale/quantum computers! And these are just the ones that are public. Nothing erodes a traditional edge like new technology force multipliers. These trends show me great hope that China has the potential to dominate the future. What good are aircraft carriers when China can teleport them into the middle of the desert? Nuclear submarines when their communications and guidance are jammed? Command centers with nuclear missiles when their computer systems are at the mercy of being hacked by machines that are superior by orders of magnitude? I have confidence that China can achieve this future and humble into peaceful submission any would be rival.

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Yep, that is correct, I would like to add that unlike the cold war between USSR and the West, where the advantage gap only widen for the West, in China its completely the opposite, China can produces on par whatever US can produces and then some. The next generation of Chinese scientist and engineers that were born in the 80s and 90s, who received the best education in China or overseas is entering the work force and we will see some amazing results.

Also I would like to add that China got where its today, 2nd largest economy or largest by PPP standard literally came out of nowhere, when US realizes the monster that it created it was too late for them to contain. If one study how did China achieve this under US's nose then one would understand China's grand strategy.

Advocating direct confrontation of China with West on issues that are not in Chinese's core interest is pretty stupid.

sanblvd said:

Yep, that is correct, I would like to add that unlike the cold war between USSR and the West, where the advantage gap only widen for the West, in China its completely the opposite, China can produces on par whatever US can produces and then some. The next generation of Chinese scientist and engineers that were born in the 80s and 90s, who received the best education in China or overseas is entering the work force and we will see some amazing results.

Also I would like to add that China got where its today, 2nd largest economy or largest by PPP standard literally came out of nowhere, when US realizes the monster that it created it was too late for them to contain. If one study how did China achieve this under US's nose then one would understand China's grand strategy.

Advocating direct confrontation of China with West on issues that are not in Chinese's core interest is pretty stupid.

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I think the take away point is this: Time is on China's side. Each day is a small victory for China as the West's advantages shrink and disadvantages grow. If there is never heated conflict, perfect; we all want that for our futures and the futures of out children. But even if there must be, it is in China's best interest to push it as far into the future as possible where China is stronger and the West is comparably weaker.