Military FAQ thread

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Re: Infantry Automatic Rifle

I'm asking what do you think of the LWRC Infantry Automatic Rifle?
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It's the size of an M-4 but has a very high rate of fire. It's basically intended to do the job of the SAW.
To me it smacks of when the US Army flirted with putting a bipod and bigger magazine on the M-16 and saying it was an LMG for surpressive fire. Obviously that didn't work too well, and I want to know do you think that this weapon is sort of heading down the same path? Does a squad need to have a dedicated, larger LMG or LMG-type weapon or can this type of hybrid fit that requirement?

Offhand, the FN Mimini/M-249 LMG was not the most reliable weapon going, especially after a lot of firing, and it didn't handle great either, being almost twenty pounds loaded. But when it worked, you could lay down a lot of fire, quickly; problem was, it was only 5.56mm, and this isn't a great cartridge. The new Automatic Rifle will use the same cartridge most of the time, at least for a while yet; the new Mk 262 77-grain is good, but in very short supply (and meant for Designated Marksman use). But a lighter, handier, automatic weapon that doesn't consume tons of ammo is good at Squad/Section-Level, as long as each Fire Team has one of its own (and each Company still has several 7.62mm MMGs/GPMGs). Firing from an open bolt in the automatic mode is good, but infantry training must be significantly improved to make the most of the lower rate of fire compared to the Minimi/M-249's mich higher rate. I would be happier if it used a rather more substantial round than the 5.56mm. We'll see how it turns out.
 

Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: Infantry Automatic Rifle

Offhand, the FN Mimini/M-249 LMG was not the most reliable weapon going, especially after a lot of firing, and it didn't handle great either, being almost twenty pounds loaded. But when it worked, you could lay down a lot of fire, quickly; problem was, it was only 5.56mm, and this isn't a great cartridge. The new Automatic Rifle will use the same cartridge most of the time, at least for a while yet; the new Mk 262 77-grain is good, but in very short supply (and meant for Designated Marksman use). But a lighter, handier, automatic weapon that doesn't consume tons of ammo is good at Squad/Section-Level, as long as each Fire Team has one of its own (and each Company still has several 7.62mm MMGs/GPMGs). Firing from an open bolt in the automatic mode is good, but infantry training must be significantly improved to make the most of the lower rate of fire compared to the Minimi/M-249's mich higher rate. I would be happier if it used a rather more substantial round than the 5.56mm. We'll see how it turns out.

I am a very FIRM believer the IAR concept is flawed to the core.

The Mk46 gives a lightweight assault LMG - don't like the M249/Minimi's weight? - get the Mk46 - just don't expect it to put out the fire that the M249 does for a long time (very thin light weight barrel).

Why on earth do you want to give a MAG fed weapon with a HEAVY barrel out to people? You think the US Army would have learned some lessons from Canada with its experience with the C2 (Automatic rifle variant of the FN FAL), and from the Brits with their L86 LSW that that a bipod and heavier barrel does not make a support weapon... In fact the Brits are now adding the Minimi, and Canada has long switched over to the Minimi and are in the middle of a mid-life rebuild...
 

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Infantry Automatic Rifle

I am a very FIRM believer the IAR concept is flawed to the core.

The Mk46 gives a lightweight assault LMG - don't like the M249/Minimi's weight? - get the Mk46 - just don't expect it to put out the fire that the M249 does for a long time (very thin light weight barrel).

Why on earth do you want to give a MAG fed weapon with a HEAVY barrel out to people? You think the US Army would have learned some lessons from Canada with its experience with the C2 (Automatic rifle variant of the FN FAL), and from the Brits with their L86 LSW that that a bipod and heavier barrel does not make a support weapon... In fact the Brits are now adding the Minimi, and Canada has long switched over to the Minimi and are in the middle of a mid-life rebuild...

That's what I was thinking-previous experience in the field with mag-fed "LMGs" modified from assault rifles have been total failures. I looked at the Mk 262, that seems like a pretty good weapon but the whole IAR concept is just iffy to me.
 

Norfolk

Junior Member
VIP Professional
Re: Infantry Automatic Rifle

I am a very FIRM believer the IAR concept is flawed to the core.

The Mk46 gives a lightweight assault LMG - don't like the M249/Minimi's weight? - get the Mk46 - just don't expect it to put out the fire that the M249 does for a long time (very thin light weight barrel).

Why on earth do you want to give a MAG fed weapon with a HEAVY barrel out to people? You think the US Army would have learned some lessons from Canada with its experience with the C2 (Automatic rifle variant of the FN FAL), and from the Brits with their L86 LSW that that a bipod and heavier barrel does not make a support weapon... In fact the Brits are now adding the Minimi, and Canada has long switched over to the Minimi and are in the middle of a mid-life rebuild...

You may well be correct Pointblank, but from my personal experience the more I used the Minimi, the less I was impressed with it, especially its reliability during long periods of firing; conversely, and perhaps perversely, my esteem for the MAG-58 has only increased over the years. Originally the pair of C-2s in the Gun Group (replacing the single Bren of old) wasn't a bad idea - but not as good as a MAG, which the Brits were using at the time; when the Section was reorganized in the 80's with two identical Assault Groups instead of separate Gun and Rifle Groups, then things really slipped, until the Minimi replaced the C-2s. Firepower certainly increased, but then the 2-Assault Group Section was optimized for full frontal attacks during mechanized ops; the old Section was optimized for fix 'em (Gun Group) and flank 'em (Rifle Group), mechanized or not.

The other problem with using the Minimi is what it does to endurance and agility; besides the weight of the gun itself, you've got the spare barrel and cleaning kit and ~800 rounds on the gunner. And those belts rattle pretty good inside the box; rounds in mags don't rattle near as much, an important consideration for fighting patrols. In short, ~40 pounds of gun and ammo may be tolerable when doing mechanized ops; but not so good when doing long dismounted ops, or in close quarters. A magazine-fed light machine gun, firing from an open-bolt, might just fit the ticket (and no need for a spare barrel) - Might.

As to the 5.56mm Mk 46 and similar weapons, those are stripped down to save weight to an extent that make them more or less unsuitable for regular infantry use. Comparing a 7.62mm Mk 48 to a 7.62mm MAG-58, for example, is deceptive; the former is not intended for anything like the constant usage or even Sustained Fire capability that the latter is. Likewise, even replacing the 5.56mm version of the Minimi with its new 7.62mm derivative is not what it seems. Neither is really suited for long periods of heavy firing, though that is of course what they are often used for. There are good reasons that the MAG-58 is as heavy as it is. It needs to be.

The weight savings come at a cost, which is ruggedness, reliability, and service longevity. Fine for Special Forces who may not be using the same weapon month in and month out, who use different weapons for different missions, and who can easily replace a worn weapon after a couple years or even just several months of service use. But for conventional infantry not such a good idea. Many of the weapons intended for Spec Ops might not last more than a few months of constant field use before becoming NS - or seriously malfunctioning in a fire fight.

For my money, if the proposed IAR turns out to be a turkey - and it may or may not be - the next best choice would be to put the MAG at Section level. That of course would penalize agility and endurance once again, but there would be no arguments about firepower, reliability, and durability. Having been both a Section LMG gunner and a Platoon GPMG gunner, I would offer that the MAG is by far the safer bet. But I do hope that the IAR turns out to be more than what first meets the eye. Three of these per Squad/Section might allow me to feel reasonably comfortable with the propsoed new AR/LMG - provided Infantry weapons handling and Squad/Section tactical training was substantially improved over what it is now. I have some real gripes on those subjects.
 
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challenge

Banned Idiot
what's the different between MAW and IRST

both MAW (missile approach warning) and IRST (infra-red searcj and track) both use IR focal plane detector to passive track incoming target.or mAW is just another word for IRST?

mods note>> In the future post your questions in the fact thread. DO NOT open a thread just to ask a question.

bd popeye super moderator
 
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Totoro

Major
VIP Professional
Re: what's the different between MAW and IRST

They both use similar technology but for different end purpose. MAW is a system made of several IR sensors put all over the plane, so they can, combined, cover all the possible approaches. Like the IR sensor in the IRST, those sensors see hot plume which is approaching, or if the missile's engine is exhausted, they could perhaps detect the hot body of the missile and send the data about it to the central system which assesses the incoming heat sources and if needed qualifies them as threats. The pilot then gets the data about where the threat is coming from and it can perhaps even get some warning about the speed at which its approaching and when it may hit. (providing multiple sensors on the plane can triangulate the location and/or there is past data about such approaches in the computers database so it can compare it to the present threat)

MAWs have smaller and cheaper sensors which don't have the range of a same generation IRST.
 

Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
Very basic question on Chinese pistol rounds

I've been reading up a lot on older Chinese pistols such as the Type 64 and Type 77 and I have come to the conclusion that I have no idea what round they seem to actually use. All Chinese websites and simply refer to them as 7.62mm without any reference to the length of the round which is very strange and frustrating. I assumed for a while that the 7.62mm was 7.62x25mm Tokarev round (since thats the round used by the Type 79 and Type 85) but after seeing pictures of the Type 64 with its ammunition, it doesn't look like the Tokarev at all (no bottle-neck). I thought the Type 64 ball (7.65x15mm) that I read about was subsonic round for suppressed pistols (like the unrelated Type 64 silenced and Type 67 silenced) since the dimensions stated that it was a 7.65ish diameter round, but designations are pretty subjective. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned otu if there were two different pistol rounds called the Type 64, afterall, now there is a DAP92 5.8mm round and a DAP92 9mm round but I'm still not sure. So can anybody help me clear this up? What round does the Type 64 and Type 77 actually use?
 

jwangyue

Junior Member
Re: Very basic question on Chinese pistol rounds

Type 64 and Type 77 both use Type 64 pistol round. Which is different from the Type 64 suppressed round and Type 51 Pistol Round. The total length of Type 51 round is about 10mm longer than Type 64 Pistol Round.
 
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Semi-Lobster

Junior Member
Re: Very basic question on Chinese pistol rounds

Type 64 and Type 77 both use Type 64 pistol round. Which is different from the Type 64 suppressed round and Type 51 Pistol Round. The total length of Type 51 round is about 10mm longer than Type 64 Pistol Round.

Hmm... 7.62x15mm, that sort of like the .32 ACP. Are there any websites on the Type 64 pistol round? (Chinese is ok, but I I've tried to google 7.62x15 but I haven't found anything) I'd like to read more about it, I heard it was developed alongside and for the Type 64 pistol. The round, from the pictures I've seen is rimless or semi-rimless but all the pictures are sort of blurry.
 

jwangyue

Junior Member
Here are a picture:

104.jpg
 
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