Military Developments In The Niger Junta/ECOWAS Standoff

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james smith esq

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Hope this doesn't devolve into a brutal war of attrition like Ukraine! In fact, I hope it doesn't come to conflict at all.
If Libya is any indication of Western intentions/inclinations, your hopes will be dashed!

How competent are the ECOWAS militaries in comparison to Niger and allies? I know Nigeria has experience fighting vs. Boko Haram but that's COIN as opposed to peer/near peer conflicts.
I’d think that the U. S. drone base, and potential U. S. “assistance”, might make a significant difference.
Additionally, Niger’s armed forces are probably more of an insurgent-type force than even a near-peer force.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
Political context aside - they have no ability to project power at such distances.

Nigeria needs to only cross the border and cover 300km to engage the junta. Algerian mechanized formations have to first cross 1500-2000km from the populated areas at the coast to Tamanrasset which is the southermost major military base and then another 1000km over the desert to join the battle e.g. near Niamey. If they somehow, miraculously managed to achieve that they would have no logistical support because there is no army in the world that has the capability to support mechanized formations 3000km inland in Africa.

French operations in Sahel in 2013 were interesting precisely because of how they resolved the issue of logistics by limiting the force to a brigade and using extremely aggressive maneuver to achieve desired effect while working with local military. The problem France faced wasn't that they couldn't deploy more but that they couldn't sustain more.

Algerian army is tank-heavy force to suppress islamist rebellions in populated area in the coast and insurgencies at the periphery. The equipment is tailored to the mission. Very little artillery but there are BMPT Terminators for fighting in cities.

To Niger Algeria could at best send one or two of their parachute regiments which would not contribute anything apart from additional light infantry, casualties and international embarrassment.

The capability available for operations would be Su-30s from Tamanrasset air base. However Algerian air force isn't a competent offensive force that could reliably provide recon, gather target data, coordinate with allied forces on the ground and effectively support them with air strikes. Also Tamanrasset is almost at the edge of Su-30MKA combat radius so they would require constant support from refuelers to perform basic air strike missions to Niamey. To my knowledge Algeria has never done anything that complex.

What is 'little artillery'?
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Algeria has never done something that complex? What has Nigeria done??
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As for whether Algeria can physically project force, yes they can. In addition to Tamanrasset air base, they have Bordj Badji Mokhtar Airport 9 km north of the Mali border with a 3000 m class runway.

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It runs frequent national flights and is connected by Highway N6 to the town of Reggane and the rest of Algeria.

None of ECOWAS can do anything to this airport since none of their fighters or missiles can reach it.

In an Algerian intervention, Algeria has 11x Il-76s and 17x C-130s to ferry emergency munitions and fuel to this airport, along with ground transport. Algeria also has its 5 tankers to Nigeria's 0.

It doesn't need to bomb targets with their Su-30s. Algerian Air Force has 24x Wing Loong drones with 32 hours of endurance at 200 kph and 12x ATGM hardpoints each. It just needs to clear the region around the capital of Nigerian anti air. Since Nigeria has just 1 squadron of fighters, and they're all short ranged, that won't be too hard for even just 1 squadron of Su-30s.
 

FIDEL de Chacal

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France's financial future is at stake (CFA), a core interest of France I believe. Sadly, there will be a conflict of some sort involving NATO / Western nations. But, I don't expect to see a massive amount of equipment heading there as Ukraine have taken up most of it. It's rather interesting to see Africa light up just as Western MSM have begun to parrot that the Ukrainian project has failed.
that's funny , Western Hypocrisy on full display.

FRANCE is just mad that Just like MALI and BURKINA FASO ,

NIGER wised up to their bullshit and removed the puppet they had in place and can longer take from the Cookie Jar.

NIGER (a former French Colony) has large deposits of Uranium and Gold. Uranium which FRANCE/EU badly needs to power their power plants. Gold to fuel their greed.

The French along with the US are operating Under False Pretense of battling Jihadist insurgency groups in NIGER. But for over the last decade have been unable to successfully eradicate these so call Jihadist. All the while NIGER has remain destitute and poor...hmm you mean to tell me that France and the US can't defeat a bunch guys driving around in Hilux trucks but can defeat the PLA in an arm confrontation in the Strait.

In over words the Jihadist group are on the pay roll and the insurgency is just cover for FRANCE to hind it's true motives in extracting NIGER's large deposits... The WEST love to cry Wolf on CHINA , CHINA Debt traps my ass.

For this reason FRANCE/US are in a tough bind. They cannot be seen attacking NIGER outright , So they will try their hardest to push the ECOWAS Bloc countries to do the dirty work. But the Bloc is split. Two of its members are BURKINA FASO and MALI which have stated that they will come to NIGER's aid if attacked.

Already engulfed in a proxy war FRANCE/US options are limited. Remember Afghanistan. Sanctions , The US favorite go to when it doesn't get its way , yeah ok but NIGER is already poor. I don't see ECOWAS Bloc taking any hard action if any , (See ASEAN dealings with MYANMAR) Maybe some type of deal but it won't be business as usual for FRANCE/US.

This coup is a blow to Western Imperialism and has presented the PRC golden opportunity to further improve its standings with many of the AFRICAN countries in the region and under cut the WEST.
 

MarKoz81

Junior Member
Registered Member
France's financial future is at stake (CFA), a core interest of France I believe. Sadly, there will be a conflict of some sort involving NATO / Western nations. But, I don't expect to see a massive amount of equipment heading there as Ukraine have taken up most of it. It's rather interesting to see Africa light up just as Western MSM have begun to parrot that the Ukrainian project has failed.

This is Russian propaganda.

France has 68m people and nominal GDP of 2 784 billion USD in 2023 at exchange rate of 1,05-1,10USD = 1EUR

CFA franc is split into two areas - West African CFA franc and Central Africa CFA franc.

West African CFA area includes Benin, Burkina Faso, Côte d'Ivoire, Guinea-Bissau, Mali, Niger, Senegal and Togo which combined have estimated nominal GDP in 2023 of 178,5 billion USD. That's 6,4% of France's GDP.

Central African CFA area includes Cameroon, Central African Republic, Chad, Republic of the Congo, Equatorial Guinea and Gabon with combined estimated nominal GDP in 2023 of 109 billion USD. That's 3,9% of France's GDP.

Combined all CFA countries have 182m people and nominal GDP equal to 10,3% of France's GDP.

Factor of 30.

CFA francs were pegged to the French franc which means that since 1999 both are pegged to the Euro which is managed by the European Central Bank, and not the the Bank of France.

A currency peg ensures convertability of volatile currency by underwriting the balance in the bank emitting that currency with reserves of another bank emitting currency to which the volatile currency is pegged. This type of relationship involves a limited amount of liquid capital necessary to facilitate the fractional reserve. A currency peg therefore is a political arrangement more so than an economic one and doesn't constitute any type of economic union or cooperation between the economies. It literally means that France keeps an additional stack of euros for CFA and CFA agrees to coordinate monetary policy with ECB.

Without those guarantees most of CFA countries would see their currencies being wiped out by inflation and either formally pegged to another currency or back to EUR or replaced by it, at great cost to the economy which would degenerate into barter/black market dynamics.

Euro has lost 17,3% to the dollar in the last 10 years.

Exchange rates of select African currencies to USD in the same period:
  • Sudanese Pound -99%
  • Angolan Kwanza -88%
  • Ghanian Cedi -81%
  • Nigerian Naira -79%
  • Zambian Kwacha -72%
  • Congolese Franc -63%
  • Mozambican Metical -53%
  • South African Rand -47%
  • Algerian Dinar -41%
  • Kenyan Shilling -39%
  • Botswana Pula -36%
  • Tanzanian Shilling -35%
  • Ugandan Shilling -31%
  • Mauritanian Rupee -31%
Cheaper currency can boost exports and provide short-term economic benefit but only if the exports have high added value like manufacturing and if the decrease in value is relatively small, ideally 5-10% to provide competitive edge without causing major restructuring to capital goods markets.

When a currency loses value significantly 25% or more then the cost on the economy begins to be significant. When the economy relies on export of goods which have low added value like natural products or mineral resources and doesn't produce high value added products on its own to satisfy demand then it becomes impossible to acquire necessary goods and the living standards drop precipitously.

It also typically leads to competitive devaluation as countries in the region begin to race to the bottom to maintain their exports.

Obviously the people who get rich are the people who are closest to the stream of new money to benefit from money creation via Cantillon effect.

Therefore CFA franc paradoxically benefits the economies of those countries by preventing inflationary plunder that would inevitably occur under local currency. Those countries receive montary policy of a rich developed service-oriented economy which is more advantageous to an under-developed agricultural economy because with access to modern technology it is possible to start a service sector without a large industrial economy.

It was not the intention of the creators of CFA in 1945 but it is the unintended consequence that is an obstacle to inflationary practice that would enrich the oligarchs and kleptocrats ruling the countries.

This is why ECOWAS plans to create a common currency "eco" by 2027 instead of introducing national currencies. It is an attempt to coordinate inflationary practices of the entire region and likely with the leading role of Nigeria which wants to impose eco as means of controlling monetary policy of other countries as competitors.

So why France wants to keep the CFA franc?

Because of French pride and benefits for the connected companies and banks that mostly hide their profits from such arrangement.

CFA area is simply too irrelevant for either the French public or economy to notice unless there's a terrorist attack. It's an afterthought on the sidelines that has existed for close to 80 years without much awareness of the public.

France liked keeping influence on the cheap. Not when it costs something but national pride requires that they keep up appearances.


france trade africa.jpg

This graphic is from the Economist so those are millions of USD, not "milliards" (billions). Most countries have trade in the range of barely 0,5-1 billion USD. Even the much publicised uranium from Niger is less than 10% of total import which can be easily replaced by other, better sources.

This is how little the region actually matters for the French economy.

The problems in Africa are entirely African-made. Africa is like a pathological child from a pathological family. Typically for such cultures it rejects calls to reform and seeks to externalise blame for its own failures. Such mindset is extremely dangerous because it invites predatory forces - like contemporary Russia - which will exploit the mindset to its advantage and impose the cost on the exploited country.

And this is exactly what we're seeing here. This is Rybar presenting a coup as saving the country, predictably for FSB run operation:
Sahel 2023.08.1-11.jpg

If you compare the map with map of population density of Niger, Mali and Burkina Faso it is obvious that the problem lies predominantly in Mali and (especially) Burkina Faso and not in Niger which is largely unaffected and where insurgencies cross over the border regions from the affected nieghbouring countries.

Niger Mali Burkina pop density.jpg

In Burkina Faso insurgency affects over 1/3 of population. In Mali close to 1/4. In Niger close to 1/5.

We may therefore consider the insurgencies to be a form of invasion from Mali and Burkina Faso and the coup to be a foreign intervention by failing juntas of Mali (since May 2021) and Burkna Faso (since Sept 2020) aided by Russia via Wagner. For 2 and 3 years respectively those juntas failed to address the situation in their own countries - even though that was the justification for the coups - so they decided to co-opt Niger as a "solution" because actually solving the problem would deprive them of their legitimacy.

If a military junta claims internal threat as justification to claim power then it will never resolve that threat to stay in power.

Correction: Nigeria has 3 JF-17

Their serviceability is doubtful. They were delivered from Pakistan in 2021 in a deal from 2016 for just three fighters and there were reports of technical issues like structural cracks and malfunctioning systems. It is very likely that they were not new aircraft but reconditioned or used ones and the intention of the deal was only to prepare the ground for future purchases of JF-17 and not to deliver working aircraft.

In any case four is the absolute minimum to maintain one working machine in combat readiness and it still requires the level of professionalism that Nigerian Air Force simply doesn't have. If they had six then one or two could be available for combat duty. With three it's zero. It flies when it can fly, not when it has to.

It doesn't need to bomb targets with their Su-30s. Algerian Air Force has 24x Wing Loong drones with 32 hours of endurance at 200 kph and 12x ATGM hardpoints each. It just needs to clear the region around the capital of Nigerian anti air. Since Nigeria has just 1 squadron of fighters, and they're all short ranged, that won't be too hard for even just 1 squadron of Su-30s.

This is not a serious analysis but a poorly informed fantasy in the vein of Tom Clancy that starts with awful strategy and ends with even worse tactics. I don't have time for that.
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
This is not a serious analysis but a poorly informed fantasy in the vein of Tom Clancy that starts with awful strategy and ends with even worse tactics. I don't have time for that.
You have no answer to the fact that Nigeria has no credible anti air capability to prevent 2-3 CH-2s in the air from taking out their logistics trucks in the middle of a hostile country.
 

LawLeadsToPeace

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Given the circumstances around this crisis, the World Armed Forces moderators will be keeping an eye on this thread. Unless things go extremely out of hand, we will not implement the rules found in the War in Ukraine thread. Please be civil when discussing about this topic.
 

B777LR

Junior Member
Registered Member
IMO, it will be a Toyota war. Neither side has air power or the ability to project it far enough or with sufficient precision. That goes for Algeria as well. There is also a complete lack of coordination, IFF, radios for troops on the ground etc., so talk about drones or long range fighters with precision bombs doing precise close air support is pointless. How is a UAV operator or pilot going to know the difference between one group of white/dusty Toyota pickup trucks from the other? It even applies to air combat. If a patrol of Algerian Su-30s came across a radar contact over Niamey, how would they know what side it was on? Most of those countries all rely on identical Super Tucanos, Hinds, Mi-8/17s, various varieties of Hueys and C-130s.

My own expectations, pulled from my rear with little to back it up: If war happens, Nigeria/ECOWAS is going to win this one. Nigeria alone has 230.000 military personnel and the fastest growing population in Africa to draw upon. Niger has 25.000. Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso combined have 77.000, they couldn't even stop Nigeria from taking Niamey if they placed their combined forces there. Lets face it, the US and France will also be supporting ECOWAS in various direct and indirect ways. Nigeria is much closer to Niamey, there are many roads between the two. There is also a major river, and Nigeria has riverine forces.

You have no answer to the fact that Nigeria has no credible anti air capability to prevent 2-3 CH-2s in the air from taking out their logistics trucks in the middle of a hostile country.

Does Algeria actually have any means of controlling a CH-2/3 1000 km from Algeria? That would require satellites to do, unless I am mistaken?

I will just add that Nigeria also operates the CH-3, Wing Loong and Wing Loong II, and has used them against Boko Haram. The Nigerian Alpha Jets have also been used extensively throughout West Africa, far from home, including in Niger. That said, all of the above issues still apply.
 

james smith esq

Senior Member
Registered Member
IMO, it will be a Toyota war. Neither side has air power or the ability to project it far enough or with sufficient precision. That goes for Algeria as well. There is also a complete lack of coordination, IFF, radios for troops on the ground etc., so talk about drones or long range fighters with precision bombs doing precise close air support is pointless. How is a UAV operator or pilot going to know the difference between one group of white/dusty Toyota pickup trucks from the other? It even applies to air combat. If a patrol of Algerian Su-30s came across a radar contact over Niamey, how would they know what side it was on? Most of those countries all rely on identical Super Tucanos, Hinds, Mi-8/17s, various varieties of Hueys and C-130s.

My own expectations, pulled from my rear with little to back it up: If war happens, Nigeria/ECOWAS is going to win this one. Nigeria alone has 230.000 military personnel and the fastest growing population in Africa to draw upon. Niger has 25.000. Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso combined have 77.000, they couldn't even stop Nigeria from taking Niamey if they placed their combined forces there. Lets face it, the US and France will also be supporting ECOWAS in various direct and indirect ways. Nigeria is much closer to Niamey, there are many roads between the two. There is also a major river, and Nigeria has riverine forces.

Does Algeria actually have any means of controlling a CH-2/3 1000 km from Algeria? That would require satellites to do, unless I am mistaken?

I will just add that Nigeria also operates the CH-3, Wing Loong and Wing Loong II, and has used them against Boko Haram. The Nigerian Alpha Jets have also been used extensively throughout West Africa, far from home, including in Niger. That said, all of the above issues still apply.
I think some folks might be forgetting that Benin is also a part of the ECOWAS force, and, should Benin territory be used as a staging area, the distance to Niamey could be as little as 173 -176 km.
After crossing the Niger River, from either Fandara or Pekinga, Benin, to either Boumba or Deybou Kwarra, Niger, there’s a road all the way!


8EC302EF-DF3C-4795-B2AD-AD44FE312A9A.png
 
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FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
IMO, it will be a Toyota war. Neither side has air power or the ability to project it far enough or with sufficient precision. That goes for Algeria as well. There is also a complete lack of coordination, IFF, radios for troops on the ground etc., so talk about drones or long range fighters with precision bombs doing precise close air support is pointless. How is a UAV operator or pilot going to know the difference between one group of white/dusty Toyota pickup trucks from the other? It even applies to air combat. If a patrol of Algerian Su-30s came across a radar contact over Niamey, how would they know what side it was on? Most of those countries all rely on identical Super Tucanos, Hinds, Mi-8/17s, various varieties of Hueys and C-130s.

My own expectations, pulled from my rear with little to back it up: If war happens, Nigeria/ECOWAS is going to win this one. Nigeria alone has 230.000 military personnel and the fastest growing population in Africa to draw upon. Niger has 25.000. Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso combined have 77.000, they couldn't even stop Nigeria from taking Niamey if they placed their combined forces there. Lets face it, the US and France will also be supporting ECOWAS in various direct and indirect ways. Nigeria is much closer to Niamey, there are many roads between the two. There is also a major river, and Nigeria has riverine forces.



Does Algeria actually have any means of controlling a CH-2/3 1000 km from Algeria? That would require satellites to do, unless I am mistaken?

I will just add that Nigeria also operates the CH-3, Wing Loong and Wing Loong II, and has used them against Boko Haram. The Nigerian Alpha Jets have also been used extensively throughout West Africa, far from home, including in Niger. That said, all of the above issues still apply.
Algeria indeed has a communication satellite along with their own recon satellites with as low as 2.5 m resolution.

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Nigeria also got a fighter shot down by bandits.

They also only have a single squadron of any fighters, with 0 tankers. Single squadron total means only 1-2 planes in the air at a time, rest down for maintenance. No tankers means forward positioning and lower endurance. Unless they deploy inside Niger, they'll still be at the edge of their combat radius. Thus their drones will be fighting in an area with possible Algerian CAP, without their own supporting CAP. So they could easily lose drones to Algerian Su-30s while Algerian drones will be operating without such worry.

Nigeria also has a few recon satellites, but those help it much less than Algeria, as Algeria can do something with the intel it gets, and Nigeria can't.
 

FairAndUnbiased

Brigadier
Registered Member
IMO, it will be a Toyota war. Neither side has air power or the ability to project it far enough or with sufficient precision. That goes for Algeria as well. There is also a complete lack of coordination, IFF, radios for troops on the ground etc., so talk about drones or long range fighters with precision bombs doing precise close air support is pointless. How is a UAV operator or pilot going to know the difference between one group of white/dusty Toyota pickup trucks from the other? It even applies to air combat. If a patrol of Algerian Su-30s came across a radar contact over Niamey, how would they know what side it was on? Most of those countries all rely on identical Super Tucanos, Hinds, Mi-8/17s, various varieties of Hueys and C-130s.

My own expectations, pulled from my rear with little to back it up: If war happens, Nigeria/ECOWAS is going to win this one. Nigeria alone has 230.000 military personnel and the fastest growing population in Africa to draw upon. Niger has 25.000. Mali, Niger and Burkina Faso combined have 77.000, they couldn't even stop Nigeria from taking Niamey if they placed their combined forces there. Lets face it, the US and France will also be supporting ECOWAS in various direct and indirect ways. Nigeria is much closer to Niamey, there are many roads between the two. There is also a major river, and Nigeria has riverine forces.



Does Algeria actually have any means of controlling a CH-2/3 1000 km from Algeria? That would require satellites to do, unless I am mistaken?

I will just add that Nigeria also operates the CH-3, Wing Loong and Wing Loong II, and has used them against Boko Haram. The Nigerian Alpha Jets have also been used extensively throughout West Africa, far from home, including in Niger. That said, all of the above issues still apply.
more on Algeria:

They have a specially modified Su-30MKA variant compatible with their tankers, capability to add internal fuel with external tanks, and a FLIR targeting pod. In contrast, Nigeria still uses mostly J-7s.

Algeria also has access to Kh-59s with 290 km range, allowing it to strike Nigerian forward operating bases inside Niger. Reminder again that Nigeria has no long range SAM capability, so the only question would be misfiring or malfunctioning missiles for Algeria, and if it works, it probably will hit.

It's not like Algeria has to conquer Nigeria or something. All they need to do is raise the cost of intervention for Nigeria to something they can't stomach for what is basically an optional conflict, and they can do so with their air forces alone.
 
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