Mediterranean Naval Forces

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
I don't think Russians would risk it . Cruise missiles are only prelude in the intervention . Real game would start with airstrikes later on .
I agree,

And, with the Russian ships in the area, with the potential for Yahkont or other anti-shipping missiles from Syria, and because of numerous other threats, the US is going to have a very strong over watch mission going on in the entire area with E-3 and E-2C/D AEW and AWACS. They will know precisely who shoots down any Tomahawk should it happen.

Unless the US goes far beyond any rational limit in this, or makes a horrible mistake, the Russians are going to watch it happen. IMHO, they are there to make sure that the US does not go further than the Russians feel they can stand. And then as a trip wire.

I honestly believe Obama will not order a large scale, prolonged air campaign against Syria. Too risky, both militarily and politically, and he knows it. At least I pray he is not so foolish as to do so. That's what he would have to do to reduce Syria's actual military capability.

I believe he has painted himself into a box and now wants to show that he is "serious," so to speak.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
I think the only time China would directly interfere into another country's war is if something like this happened in a Indo-Pak war

What would warrant China to send its navy into a war zone? Heres my thought

Pakistan stratedgy is to hit fast, hit hard and hit accurately able to sustain a war of between 14-21 days beyond that we enter stage two which is the battle of attrition not in Pakistans favour

Whenever we go to war everyone gets involved the big boys in Beijing, Moscow, Washington and few others I can't see the war going beyond 21 days but lets say it does then the majority of Pakistans shells and ammunition will run out, especially the 155mm shells which I know will not last more than 10 days of it comes to war with India, however the situation will be better in 3-5 years when we can plan for a war to last beyond 30 days even 40 days

In such a situation and a VERY UNLIKELY event India somehow manages to blockade Pakistan and position themselves to strike deep inside Pakistan where nuclear retaliation is on the cards undr such circumstances if Chinese vessels are in the area they could take up positions to intercept Indian attacks

In 1999 when China had nothing much in terms of a navy they sent 40 F7PG, M11 missiles and ammunition ships were docking at Karachi dockyard 2 weeks after the event, so I don't think that it's out of the question that Chinese navy would somewhere somehow fit into this war and play its part, especially when China was ready to mobilise a land field army during Kargil War

They could also deploy thier navy to force a split in the Indian defences where they mobilise to force India to commit thier assets to face off a Chinese fleet alleviating Pakistan

Again these are far fetched scenarios but ones I think maybe not out of the question, historically China has relied on its vast land army to tilt the balance of power but from now on we can also expect their navy to do this job, a very good source of deterrence
 
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It makes no sense for China to get involved whatsoever. Evacuation of nationals when needed, sure. China doesn't have the ability nor the deep political relationships with any of the involved parties that the US and Russia have to warrant action.

For the US, with the UK out, I think the US should at least wait until the UN investigation is completed before doing anything. And if there is evidence that the Syrian government used chemical weapons, it will be the time to present it when the UN report comes out.

After a case has been made to the international community preferably with solid evidence, I think the US should limit itself to a punitive strike on the specific Syrian government unit which used chemical weapons. Anything beyond that may be too risky and there clearly is no political will to do much if anything.
 
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kwaigonegin

Colonel
It makes no sense for China to get involved whatsoever. Evacuation of nationals when needed, sure. China doesn't have the ability nor the deep political relationships with any of the involved parties that the US and Russia have to warrant action.

Unless Obama directly and publicly ask China for 'assistance' in diverting PLAN assets from Persian Gulf to the Med. that would put china in a terrible position. It would be one of the craziest and riskiest political move of his life but if he can pull it off he'll be a hero and China would be viewed as weak, ineffectual and antagonistic by the American public because most likely China will laugh at and refused such a request.

If China honors his request then the US will have HUGE credibility in conducting strikes against Syria. PLAN ships don't even have to fire a single round. All they have to do is show up and buddy buddy with USN.
 

Jeff Head

General
Registered Member
Unless Obama directly and publicly ask China for 'assistance' in diverting PLAN assets from Persian Gulf to the Med. that would put china in a terrible position. It would be one of the craziest and riskiest political move of his life but if he can pull it off he'll be a hero and China would be viewed as weak, ineffectual and antagonistic by the American public because most likely China will laugh at and refused such a request.

If China honors his request then the US will have HUGE credibility in conducting strikes against Syria. PLAN ships don't even have to fire a single round. All they have to do is show up and buddy buddy with USN.
I think we are in store for a Cruise Missile war for a few days. All of the war shots look like they will come from the US.

France seems to be holding at sending its carrier group in for additional protection for the US destroyers, and to add attack capability at the tactical level if needed. I do not think it will be needed.

I do not know if the Italians are actively a part of this...but they and their vessels are near by.

The French, with their Horizon DDG, the carrier and whatever other escorts they send (I am trying to find out the composition of that force and will post it when I know) will be able to provide even more anti-air defense in addition to the five Burkes.

I do not expect any request will go to the PRC from Obama. Most of the US population is very much against this action, so a refusal by the PRC would not negatively impact US public perception of China. In fact, they would be much more apt to be understanding of that refusal just as they pretty much accept the UK refusal.

Obama would end up being the one looking bad. he ould look like he was desperate.

As it is, he will have the French there. Maybe the italians, maybe the Turks...and he definitely has the support of the Saudis too. His aim is to miantain his credibility, and to make it look like he is tough on punishing Assad for his chemical weapons.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
It makes no sense for China to get involved whatsoever. Evacuation of nationals when needed, sure. China doesn't have the ability nor the deep political relationships with any of the involved parties that the US and Russia have to warrant action.

The objective is not to go in and start anything, but mainly for intel gathering and also give the PLAN a good training opportunity with an actual shooting war. The PLAN won't be directly involved, but a ring side seat would be invaluable nonetheless.

The task group would also serve its advertised function of acting as a contingency for emergency evacuation of Chinese nationals if things get really out of hand.

At this late stage, its seems unlike that the PLAN would make the party even if they set off right now, but I think it is an opportunity missed.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Unless Obama directly and publicly ask China for 'assistance' in diverting PLAN assets from Persian Gulf to the Med. that would put china in a terrible position. It would be one of the craziest and riskiest political move of his life but if he can pull it off he'll be a hero and China would be viewed as weak, ineffectual and antagonistic by the American public because most likely China will laugh at and refused such a request.

If China honors his request then the US will have HUGE credibility in conducting strikes against Syria. PLAN ships don't even have to fire a single round. All they have to do is show up and buddy buddy with USN.

Why would Obama ask China? There is zero chance China would even passively participate in an attack on Syria as that runs directly counter to everything China has ever stood for.

If Obama asks, China will say 'no' and stress precisely why they are saying no and it would be a needless, self inflicted black eye for Obama.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
In addition The american military even with Sequester still have more then enough fire power to go it alone. So asking China is a useless venture.
 

joshuatree

Captain
How many Chinese nationals are in Syria? I would only see China sending in naval assets as part of some evacuation for their nationals like what they did in Libya. If that is the case, I would see the current anti-piracy flotilla as the closest and actually appropriate since there is an 071.
 

SampanViking

The Capitalist
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
I agree,

And, with the Russian ships in the area, with the potential for Yahkont or other anti-shipping missiles from Syria, and because of numerous other threats, the US is going to have a very strong over watch mission going on in the entire area with E-3 and E-2C/D AEW and AWACS. They will know precisely who shoots down any Tomahawk should it happen.

Unless the US goes far beyond any rational limit in this, or makes a horrible mistake, the Russians are going to watch it happen. IMHO, they are there to make sure that the US does not go further than the Russians feel they can stand. And then as a trip wire.

I honestly believe Obama will not order a large scale, prolonged air campaign against Syria. Too risky, both militarily and politically, and he knows it. At least I pray he is not so foolish as to do so. That's what he would have to do to reduce Syria's actual military capability.

I believe he has painted himself into a box and now wants to show that he is "serious," so to speak.

The danger in all this remains the total lack of trust that the Russians have for US intentions.
The US is now talking about proceeding with an action on the basis of R2P and are presenting R2P as a trump over any other form of International Law or obligation.

Previously of course R2P was used in Libya as the pretext for regime change with the fig leaf of a UN resolution, while now they the US is saying that R2P creates an obligation which exceeds the need for International consensus. Who could seriously blame the Russians for suspecting that a nation that happily uses a resolution backed R2P as the pretext for regime change, will not use it as a pretext again, especially when they use it as a moral high ground in this way.

What then would the claim of military action be all about? What would be the supposed targets? We have learned that Syria is dispersing its Strategic Arsenal, while attacks on the Chemical Weapons would be far too risky.
This leaves only two likely other objectives; Command and Control and/or Air Defence.

In either case it is too late once the missiles are flying to wait and see if the US is honouring its word. If C & C and AD are the targets, then clearly the missiles are not a warning shot, but merely the opening salvo as a prelude to open the skies to round the clock Air Bombardment and eventual Regime Change.

Russia and China have already been fooled once and on the basis of "Fool me once, shame on you.......etc" will not be prepared to be made to look foolish again.

IMHO Russia can only but assume that any missiles strike will simply be the softening up salvo and that if they are allowed to transit unchallenged and hit their targets, that it would be game over and that protection of Russia to its allies is meaningless. They will therefore have no option but to work with the Syrians and together seek to interdict the missiles directly.

Can China become involved in this? Yes and in an nuanced way. What China will not do is escalate in a pre-emptive way. China knows that the threat of its greater involvement will be a major deterrence to the US and others and so will only escalate in response to direct and continued provocations.

The launching of an attack by the US without UN backing will be taken as China as a major escalation. They will support Russian interdiction and afterwards will warn that they will join in future interdiction if Washington attempts a further strike.

You must not forget the Garrison in Afghanistan either. If missiles fly at Syria, you can safely assume that all routes of Afghanistan will be closed to NATO traffic and this would cause considerable political problems and a crisis greater than the blockade of Berlin.

I think you would also see the Asian Powers start to apply pressure across the globe on sensitive spots to both draw US forces as thin as possible, and to also "confuse" the media story and make reportage incoherent.

At all times however, the risk of rapid and dangerous calamitous escalation would be ever present and ever more threatening as long as any crisis remained.
 
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