Mediterranean Naval Forces

As we all know, here in late August 2013, these is a potential confrontation looming in the Mediterranean. The best case would be that a few US destroyers, nuclear attack submarines, assisted by some British nuclear attack submarines, fire some Tomahawk land at5tack missiles into Syria as a repisal for supposed Syrian fores use of chemical weapons.

However, since Syria is Russia's principle Mid-East ally, where they have significant naval maintenance and supply facilities in the port of Tartous, the Russians have been warning the US and its allies to not attack Syria.

In March 2013, as the civil war in Syria continued to heat up, Russia announced it would create a permanent naval presence and squadron in the Mediterranean. The Russians announced and then created this pemanent squadron in the Mediterranean earlier this year.

With the US clearly announcing it may attack Syria soon over the chemical weapons issue, Russia has now announced it was re-inforcing its Mediterannean squadron. This squadron, as a result of the reinforcement, now consists of five large surface combatants, a cruiser, two destroyers and two frigates. The Russians announced earlier this year that the squadron would be augmented as required with nuclear attack submarines. No official announcement of which subs and how many has ever been made, but it is likely that two nuclear attack submarines could be now included .

So, with all of this in mind, I have listed the current force the Russians may well have in the Mediterranean to be discussed here on SD. Now and in the future. Here are the Russians:


SLAVA CLASS Cruiser (One):
Displacement - 11,500 tons
Length: 186.5 m
Beam: 20.8 m
Draft: 8.4 m
Speed: 32 knots
Crew: 485
Armament:
- 16 x SS-N-12 Sandbox anti-ship
- 64 x SA-N-6 Grumble anti-air
- 48 x SA-N-4 Gecko anti-air
- 01 x Twin 130mm DP main gun
- 06 x AK-630 30mm CIWS
- 02 x 12 RBU-6000 ASW Rockets
Aircraft: 1 KA-27 ASW Helicopter & Hanger


UDALOY CLASS Destroyer (Two):
Displacement - 7,570 tons
Length: 163 m
Beam: 19.3 m
Draft: 6.2 m
Speed: 35 knots
Crew: 300
Armament:
- 08 x SS-N-14 Silex anti-submarine
- 64 x SA-N-9 Gauntlet anti-air
- 32 x SA-N-11 Kortik anti-air
- 02 x 100 mm DP main gun
- 04 x AK-630 30mm CIWS
- 02 x 12 RBU-6000 ASW Rockets
- 08 x 553 mm Torpedo Tubes
Aircraft: 2 KA-27 ASW Helicopter & Hanger


NUESTRASHIMY CLASS Frigate (One):
Displacement - 3,800 tons
Length: 129.5 m
Beam: 15.6 m
Draft: 5.6 m
Speed: 30 knots
Crew: 210
Armament:
- 16 x SS-N-25 Switchblade anti-ship
- 32 x SA-N-9 Gauntlet anti-air
- 01 x 100 mm DP main gun
- 02 x Kashtan 30mm CIWS
- 16 SA-N-11 close range anti-air
- 01 x 12 RBU-6000 ASW Rockets
Aircraft: 1 KA-27 ASW Helicopter & Hanger


KRIVAK CLASS Frigate (One):
Displacement - 3,600 tons
Length: 123.5 m
Beam: 14.1 m
Draft: 4.6 m
Speed: 32 knots
Crew: 200
Armament:
- 04 x SS-N-14 Silex anti-submarine
- 40 x SA-N-4 Gecko anti-air
- 04 x 76 mm DP main guns
- 02 x 12 RBU-6000 ASW Rockets
Aircraft: None


AKULA CLASS Submarine (One):
Displacement - 8,470 tons
Length: 113.5 m
Beam: 13.6 m
Draft: 9.7 m
Speed: 32 knots
Crew: 75
Armament:
- 04 x 533 mm tubes (28 weapons)
- 02 x 650 mm tubes (12 Weapons)
- 03 x SA-N-10 Igla-M anti-air
Weapons include anti-ship missile, anti-ship & anti-sub torpedos, and mines.
Aircraft: None


SIERRA CLASS Submarine (One):
Displacement - 7,200 tons
Length: 111 m
Beam: 14.2 m
Draft: 7.5 m
Speed: 32 knots
Crew: 61
Armament:
- 04 x 533 mm tubes (24 weapons)
- 04 x 650 mm tubes (16 Weapons)
- 03 x SA-N-10 Igla-M anti-air
Weapons include anti-ship missile, anti-ship & anti-sub torpedos, and mines.
Aircraft: None

I will make another post later today documenting the current US and its allies forces being gathered for this attack to compare to the Russian presence.

What are the realistic chances of this Russian fleet acting as a deterrent to the US? If the US launches their attack, what military options does this fleet have?

solarz said:

What are the realistic chances of this Russian fleet acting as a deterrent to the US? If the US launches their attack, what military options does this fleet have?

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I personally believe the Russians have contacted the US through back channels and let them know exactly what the Russians are willing to accept. They will not act militarily unless things go way beyond that.

They will do whatever they can to keep Assad in power. He is an important ally to them, and their only real ally in the Mid East and therefore critical to them. They will make sure that the US knows they will not tolerate the US bringing him down through extrernal military means. it is likely that Obama and allies will launch a few dozen Tomahawks and hit some Syrian targets. But whatever damage they do will not nearly be enough to appreicably change anything on the ground. Obama will crow about how tough he was, Puitin and Assad will condemn it, and things will precede as they are now. I hope this is what happens and it is the best (at this point IMHO) we can hope for.

The Russian vessels could try and ride it out there in the Syrian port and that would probably ensure that that port is not hit. But that is risky. They would be knowingly staying in a hot combat zone, with no room to manuever, and the chance for errors and mistakes is just too high on both sides. I expect they will weigh anchor and ride it out at sea where they can be better prepared to defend themselves if need be, or to act if given the orders.

The biggest threat the Russians would pose if they have a couple of the later model SSNs in the area. These would be a definite, serious threat to US and aliied vessels. You can bet the US and its allies know this and will position quite a few more of their own SSNs as a counter/defense. Probably several LA Flight II boats, maybe a Virginia, a couple of Trafalgars, and perhaps even the Astute.

Then comes the missiles from the Slava class cruiser. They are big, they are fast, and they are dangerous and would put any of the US or allied ships out of commission if they hit them...if not sink them outright. The US will use its commaning AEW and AWACS presence to provide extra warning and potential EW defense. Then they will depend on counter measures, decoys, chaff, and AEGIS and CIWS. But if those Russian missiles fly, everything comes apart. The US will defend itself and part of that defense will be an immeidate, overwhelming attack on those vessels. Let's hope that does not happen.

Some have suggested that the Russian vessels will try and shoot down US and allied missiles as a way to prevent damnage to Syria. I do not think that will happen. That would be the Russians taking active military measures in a hot combat zone, making themselves a target, and would invite immediate attack by the US and its allies. The Russians will not do that at all as long as the US and its allies stay within whatever parameters they have voiced to the US.

Anyhow, those are just some of my thoughts on it.

That must be the most blatant naval confrontation between russian ships and western forces in many years, when was the last such event one can recall? Cold war, surely?

Bltizo said:

That must be the most blatant naval confrontation between russian ships and western forces in many years, when was the last such event one can recall? Cold war, surely?

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Well, right after the cold war you had an incident where a US LA Class sub was close in to Russia on a clandestine mission and collided with a Russian sub. Both were damaged, but no one was injured or killed.

The Russian sub was a Sierra SSN, the Kostroma S276. The US sub was the USS Baton Rouge, a Flight I LA Class boat.

The Russian sub was repaired the next year and put back in service.

The US sub had a nuclear refueling scheduled a little over a year later. the US Navy kept her active until then, but never repaired the presuure hull dent and then decommissioned her less than two years after the collision. After this, the Russian sub painted a "kill" sign on their hull and I believe have kept it there ever since.

Then there was of course the Kirsk incident where a US and a UK SSN were in the area when the disaster occurred. It has nnever been proven they had anything to do with it, and the Russians themselves officially do not claim that they did. But they were defintely there..

But nothing on this scale where you have two large groups of ships in a potential confrontation.

Well I am one that could foresee Russia both assisting Syria and actively seeking to interdict US missiles.

Given the lack of legality for any punitive action by US led forces, there would be no reason for Russia to hold back. You may think that targeting cruise missiles would be an escalation, but it would be nothing compared to the deliberate targeting of Russian Ships by return.

Targeting missiles would become a technology dual and both sides would probably be as interested in the telemetry gained from the other as they would with the strategic objective.

Somebody said earlier; in response to a comment I made about playing Poker Putin, that Obama holds all the best cards. That is true, but a card played cannot be unplayed afterwards, so the bluff here from Putin is whether Obama would be man enough to play them.

Another element of course is the very real bad blood between the two men, where neither is going to tolerate being seen to have to back down on account of the other. That if you like is the joker in the pack.

To answer Blitzo, we are probably only a couple of steps away from a confrontation as serious as that as Cuba 63. Its not there yet, meaning its not yet an actual crisis, but it could deepen rapidly over the next 48 hours, as both sides start to become more explicit about their intentions and timetables.

The true danger of course is that the the Global Geopolitical fault line runs down an deep existing local fault, which makes it all the more volatile. The west support Middle Eastern Nations that are largely Sunni, while the Asian Powers are aligned with nations that are largely Shia.

It is a small relief that in the UK Parliament has voted against participating in any military action and in this instance, has acted in accordance to the declared will of the overwhelming majority of the British Public.

Returning briefly to the ultimate danger; I realise that many of you are familiar with the US Movie, "The Day After". I would recommend however watching a British Film released at about the same time, called "Threads" which deals with the same subject matter. This is however far more gritty than the more glossy American production and; more vitally, actually gives a good illustration of how and how quickly the situation can deteriorate and how it would look to the unsuspecting general public.

Jeff Head said:

I personally believe the Russians have contacted the US through back channels and let them know exactly what the Russians are willing to accept. They will not act militarily unless things go way beyond that.

They will do whatever they can to keep Assad in power. He is an important ally to them, and their only real ally in the Mid East and therefore critical to them. They will make sure that the US knows they will not tolerate the US bringing him down through extrernal military means. it is likely that Obama and allies will launch a few dozen Tomahawks and hit some Syrian targets. But whatever damage they do will not nearly be enough to appreicably change anything on the ground. Obama will crow about how tough he was, Puitin and Assad will condemn it, and things will precede as they are now. I hope this is what happens and it is the best (at this point IMHO) we can hope for.

The Russian vessels could try and ride it out there in the Syrian port and that would probably ensure that that port is not hit. But that is risky. They would be knowingly staying in a hot combat zone, with no room to manuever, and the chance for errors and mistakes is just too high on both sides. I expect they will weigh anchor and ride it out at sea where they can be better prepared to defend themselves if need be, or to act if given the orders.

The biggest threat the Russians would pose if they have a couple of the later model SSNs in the area. These would be a definite, serious threat to US and aliied vessels. You can bet the US and its allies know this and will position quite a few more of their own SSNs as a counter/defense. Probably several LA Flight II boats, maybe a Virginia, a couple of Trafalgars, and perhaps even the Astute.

Then comes the missiles from the Slava class cruiser. They are big, they are fast, and they are dangerous and would put any of the US or allied ships out of commission if they hit them...if not sink them outright. The US will use its commaning AEW and AWACS presence to provide extra warning and potential EW defense. Then they will depend on counter measures, decoys, chaff, and AEGIS and CIWS. But if those Russian missiles fly, everything comes apart. The US will defend itself and part of that defense will be an immeidate, overwhelming attack on those vessels. Let's hope that does not happen.

Some have suggested that the Russian vessels will try and shoot down US and allied missiles as a way to prevent damnage to Syria. I do not think that will happen. That would be the Russians taking active military measures in a hot combat zone, making themselves a target, and would invite immediate attack by the US and its allies. The Russians will not do that at all as long as the US and its allies stay within whatever parameters they have voiced to the US.

Anyhow, those are just some of my thoughts on it.

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You don't go to war or conduct military actions when there are just too many unknowns unless you are fighting for your survival which obviously is not the case here. One unknown variable which not many have talked about is Iran and Israel. If either one or BOTH get into the fray things will escalate exponentially.

During times like these, backdoor channels are crucial! I am sure Obama, Putin, Netanyahu maybe Gordon are all talking on the phone. At least I hope they are!! Everyone wants to look like he is the hero and champion of the people but nobody wants to clean up the mess afterward if things gets nasty.

Like you said the best we can hope for at this point is the US lobs a few TLAMs at night. Maybe kill the unsuspecting soldier or two, the unfortunate night janitor at some government installation and call it a day. Obama will say he stood up for the good people of Syria. Putin, Assad etc will call the US the great Satan controlled by the evil Zionist, Bibi will commend Obama for a job well done and the world goes on and Syria will still be a giant mess.
China will be on the other side thinking to themselves .. and this is why we stay the heck out of other peoples' family problems.

kwaigonegin said:

You don't go to war or conduct military actions when there are just too many unknowns unless you are fighting for your survival which obviously is not the case here. One unknown variable which not many have talked about is Iran and Israel. If either one or BOTH get into the fray things will escalate exponentially.

During times like these, backdoor channels are crucial! I am sure Obama, Putin, Netanyahu maybe Gordon are all talking on the phone. At least I hope they are!! Everyone wants to look like he is the hero and champion of the people but nobody wants to clean up the mess afterward if things gets nasty.

Like you said the best we can hope for at this point is the US lobs a few TLAMs at night. Maybe kill the unsuspecting soldier or two, the unfortunate night janitor at some government installation and call it a day. Obama will say he stood up for the good people of Syria. Putin, Assad etc will call the US the great Satan controlled by the evil Zionist, Bibi will commend Obama for a job well done and the world goes on and Syria will still be a giant mess.
China will be on the other side thinking to themselves .. and this is why we stay the heck out of other peoples' family problems.

Click to expand...

The single Moskva cruisers didnt change anything but for everyone else seeing a 12,000 ton warship taking up position sends hell of a message to the other side, it says we are committed and we are going to go the distance

China should be taking note of the event very very closely, another reason why China needs something like a 12,000 ton Type 055 of thier own, deploying such a vessals is a huge political and militray statement

asif iqbal said:

The single Moskva cruisers didnt change anything but for everyone else seeing a 12,000 ton warship taking up position sends hell of a message to the other side, it says we are committed and we are going to go the distance

China should be taking note of the event very very closely, another reason why China needs something like a 12,000 ton Type 055 of thier own, deploying such a vessals is a huge political and militray statement

Click to expand...

I am not disagreeing in principle however if China wants to make a statement they can just send the Liaoning CSG that will be available in a couple of years which would be even more significant than any 12K cruiser etc but I seriously doubt you will see any PLAN ships in the Med for those reasons anytime soon or even in the near future.

asif iqbal said:

The single Moskva cruisers didnt change anything but for everyone else seeing a 12,000 ton warship taking up position sends hell of a message to the other side, it says we are committed and we are going to go the distance

China should be taking note of the event very very closely, another reason why China needs something like a 12,000 ton Type 055 of thier own, deploying such a vessals is a huge political and militray statement

Click to expand...

^ This.

I was thinking of pointing out earlier just how potent a statement that sending a cruiser like moskva is.

Sending a single "large" capital ship out there in its own SAG is probably one step below sending a CVBG in terms of political significance, and cruisers are excellent vessels for gunboat diplomacy.

As an aside, it is fascinating to me that the slava class cruisers to this day are still the world's heaviest class of surface combatant in service (outside of the kirov battlecruisers -- but they're so unique and they're nuclear powered so I don't count them), and will be until zumwalt enters service, and/or 055 as well.


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However, in reply to sampanviking, I seriously doubt the russian ships will seek to intercept US cruise missiles. That is more or less equivalent to engaging the US ships in conflict directly. Also there is a practical difficulty in engaging cruise missiles that may not be flying on an axis directly at you. They may detect and track them, but I doubt they could engage many tomahawks even if they wanted to.