Maoist Attack on Indian Troops!

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Pointblank

Senior Member
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

vesicles said:
If PLA officials dare to sell things like surface-to-air missiles, anti-aircraft guns, landmines, rocket-propelled grenades to some poorly financed foreign groups, it would be lot easier for these officials to sell small weapons to well-financed and well-connected Chinese underlords. Then Chinese cities would be infested with machine guns. Although we hear stories about gun fighting in China, it is still a seldom thing.

That means that smuggling guns by PLA officials does not happen that often.
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Explain the large numbers of Chinese-made weapons that we find in Afghanistan and Iraq, most of it brand new. We are talking large cache's of weapons, not just the occasional AK or RPG.
 
Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

I don't think PLA officials illegally smuggle weapons very often. It's punishable by death and weapons are tightly controlled in China. North Korea is another story. They can and do sell anything to anyone. Also Pakistan has massive semi-legal gun markets where weapons are often made by hand and anything can be bought. Just watch this video:

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PS, bonus points if you can spot the vintage WWI Lewis gun! :D

But I find it much more likely that the Naxalites get guns mainly from capturing them/stealing them, and buying them from corrupt officials.

I want to know the actual nature of this attack. Where did it take place, what happened, tactically how did the Naxalites destroy what appears to have been a superior force?
 
optionsss

optionsss

Junior Member
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

Pointblank said:
Explain the large numbers of Chinese-made weapons that we find in Afghanistan and Iraq, most of it brand new. We are talking large cache's of weapons, not just the occasional AK or RPG.
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What is the composition of "large cache" of weapons? If you are talking about type-95 rifles and HJ-8 anti-tank missiles, then yes, I do believe someone inside the PLA is selling weapons to outside. But, if we are talking about brand new AKs or RPGs, then it could come from anywhere, but not from PLA arms reserve.
Chinese arms manufacture still make those weapons for export, people can place an order to buy those weapons through a legitimate regime and re-sell back to Iraq. Remember the Italy mafia get caught selling weapons to Iraq? Their weapon have to come from somewhere.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

wtf China sold plenty of weapons to iraq during the 90s, i am not surprised that they'd find Chinese made weapons in iraq. and besides that has nothing to do with india. i'll take that stuff seriously if the indian government officially protests to the Chinese. otherwise they'll have to just get better and now get beaten 85 to 1 next time.

as for weapon smuggling and illegal trade, i believe the CIA is the real expert in this.
 
plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

bladerunner said:
Im pretty sure they were'nt front line army soilders. In fact reading some comments made by Indians in a variety of magazines, they were'nt army in the strictest sense.
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Irrelevant. If the Maoists had launched an attack and slaughtered these poor buggers in their barracks, then your argument would carry a lot of weight. But these men were killed while on combat duties.

They were sent into 'hostile' territory as part of a government offensive against these Maoist guerillas, that pretty much shows that these troops were combat ready, or were supposed to be.

If they were nothing more then poorly trained part-timers, why were they sent in? Last I check, the Indian army wasn't exactly short of grunts.

No matter how you look at it, its a colossal f*** up that is completely inexcusable. Unless thats the best the Indians can do, which I expect not!
 
vesicles

vesicles

Colonel
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

Pointblank said:
Explain the large numbers of Chinese-made weapons that we find in Afghanistan and Iraq, most of it brand new. We are talking large cache's of weapons, not just the occasional AK or RPG.
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What's wrong with PLA officials selling weapons to Afghanistan and Iraqis WITH the permission of the govn't? What the CCP tells the world and what the CCP orders its own people to do could be completely different. It COULD potentially be benefial to the Chinese when the West, especially the US, is in a trouble as deep as possible in Afghanistan and Iraq. Thus providing them with weapons is not unreasonable. Of course, this is pure speculation, only a possible explanation for the China-made weapons in Afghanistan and Iraq, other than illegal smuggling.

Also, CCP takes weapons very seriously. Mao used to say "guns = power". Imagine if CCP would actually allow weapons to be lost that easily. With the massive quantity lost, as you mentioned, it would be very easy for the CCP to find out who did it, especially with the kind of tight control the CCP has over the military. And this kind of smuggling would be stopped immediately. And please do not mistaken this kind of smuggling with the normal kinds.
 
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plawolf

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

Pointblank said:
Explain the large numbers of Chinese-made weapons that we find in Afghanistan and Iraq, most of it brand new. We are talking large cache's of weapons, not just the occasional AK or RPG.
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Mexico and Latin American drug gangs are largely supplied with American guns and munitions. Is the American government responsible for that?

I remember reading an article a year or so ago about how the Americans managed to loose tens of thousands of guns they purchased for the Iraqi army and police. Those weapons were mostly AKs and RPGs. And thats not to mention the record of the Iraqi and Afghan government forces in keeping track of their own weapons.

There are any number of possible ways how Chinese made for export weapons might have ended up in insurgent hands, and the Chinese government directly supplying the insurgents is about as improbable a case as there can be.

The same argument I given before apply to these allegations - if there was even a hint of a shred of proof that the Chinese government was directly supply weapons to anti-coalition forces, the American media would be all over it like flies on sh*t.

The very fact that there were Chinese writing on the weapons is a pretty damn good indication that the Chinese government never intended for them to fall into the hands of insurgents.

If China wanted to deliberately supply the insurgents with weapons, its a very simply thing to manufacture blank weapons with no serials or any identifiable marks that can be traced back to China. And there are plenty of things China could supply the insurgents that can hurt coalition forces a hell of a lot more then simple small arms.

If China was to do what America did to the Soviets, you would look back to today's casualty figures with fond longing.
 
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pla101prc

Senior Member
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

plawolf said:
Irrelevant. If the Maoists had launched an attack and slaughtered these poor buggers in their barracks, then your argument would carry a lot of weight. But these men were killed while on combat duties.

They were sent into 'hostile' territory as part of a government offensive against these Maoist guerillas, that pretty much shows that these troops were combat ready, or were supposed to be.

If they were nothing more then poorly trained part-timers, why were they sent in? Last I check, the Indian army wasn't exactly short of grunts.

No matter how you look at it, its a colossal f*** up that is completely inexcusable. Unless thats the best the Indians can do, which I expect not!
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hey dont look down on part-timers. i am a part timer too.

85:1 kill ratio is pretty ridiculous i must say, not even NATO can achieve that number vs the taliban in a firefight consisted of only light weapons.

i think these troops were only on a routine patrol, cept that they had a couple of high ranking officials with them who were also killed in action. so you can get on moles having tapped the info to the Maoists beforehand.

even for the Indian army the performance was less than satisfactory, with firefight continued for over 5 hours before reinforcements arrived. but i think one of the explanations for all this could be conflict of jurisdiction with regional government.
 
Finn McCool

Finn McCool

Captain
Registered Member
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

pla101prc said:
hey dont look down on part-timers. i am a part timer too.

85:1 kill ratio is pretty ridiculous i must say, not even NATO can achieve that number vs the taliban in a firefight consisted of only light weapons.

i think these troops were only on a routine patrol, cept that they had a couple of high ranking officials with them who were also killed in action. so you can get on moles having tapped the info to the Maoists beforehand.

even for the Indian army the performance was less than satisfactory, with firefight continued for over 5 hours before reinforcements arrived. but i think one of the explanations for all this could be conflict of jurisdiction with regional government.
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Are we certain only 1 Maoist was killed? It just doesn't stand to reason that if the Indian Security Forces were in combat for 5 hours, and 85 of them died, that only 1 Maoist was killed. I've seen sources that say up to 8 Maoists were killed, supposedly mostly by one guy. It seems that IEDs of some kind were used, along with a conventional small arms ambush, and that the Maoists were able to pick over bodies afterwards and even killed some with machetes, etc. so at least some of the paramilitary positions had to have been overrun entirely. It also seems that hundreds of Naxalites were involved, so I think we can conclude that since they were able to place a large force in ambushing positions and emplace explosives before the attack, they probably knew the patrol would be travelling along the route.

Probably the Indian troops were poorly trained and led. They were unable to withstand the initial shock of the ambush and probably lost all organization and morale, collapsing into timid groups that were unable to establish communication with higher levels that could have brought in firepower and reinforcements, and were unable to hold out.

If the battle did indeed last 5 hours, it's unacceptable that no one in the security forces was able to direct some sort of heavier firepower onto the Maoists.

This ambush and the article below make it clear to me that the police forces that have been fighting the Maoists are probably no longer capable of handling the problem alone.

Troopers scared to enter forest after Maoist ambush
IANS, Apr 7, 2010, 11.48am IST

RAIPUR: A day after 76 troopers were massacred in the worst ever Maoist attack, hundreds of para-military men and state police personnel assigned to track down the killers are scared to enter the jungles of Chhattisgarh Wednesday fearing a repeat of the 'bloody Tuesday' incident.

The shell-shocked police incumbent here have ordered nearly 40,000 policemen deployed in the restive Bastar region to retaliate.

But officials posted in the interiors of the region say: "The Tuesday attack has rattled the entire police force engaged in the anti-Maoist operation and they are now reluctant to enter the landmine protected jungle terrain".

"It's easy for everyone to dictate to us from New Delhi and Raipur sitting in air-conditioned chambers, but here the situation is completely hostile because Maoists rule the roost in jungles. The forces in Bastar now need urgent motivation," a police officer based in Dantewada said on phone.

Police officers posted in the sprawling 40,000 sq km Bastar terrain made up of five districts -- Bijapur, Narayanpur, Bastar, Kanker and Dantewada where the Maoists staged a bloodbath in the Chintalnar hilly area say -- "policemen are suffering high casualties because of an absolute lack of co-ordination between state forces and para-military men who are put in difficult terrains in Chhattisgarh".

"Despite all efforts at the police headquarters and at the state government level, the CRPF is not taking local police and special police officers (SPOs) along while entering the Maoists' den and are thus getting killed without a fight," noted a senior official here.

He remarked that CRPF men are all outsiders and know nothing about the difficult jungle terrain. They were reminded several times by officers at the police headquarters to take along at least the SPOs who are locals but the CRPF men neither followed this suggestion nor did they stick to the 48-point guerrilla warfare manuals.
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rhino123

rhino123

Pencil Pusher
VIP Professional
Re: Maoist Attack on Indian Troop!

In my country, there are no mentioning of the number of casaulty for the Maoists side. But about 73 dead in the indian faction and 1 injure. i was under the impression that the Indian faction was ambushed and overrun by a much larger Maoist troop (Singapore source put the figures at 700) and the Maoist are at a more advantageous position (in high ground.)

What I don't understand was... was there any communication between the ambushed troops to HQ behind? If there was, like what McFinn had stated, why wasn't there any heavier firepower being directed at the ambushers? Why are there no relieve?

Taking this scenario as an example, lets say it was not the Indians but NATO forces or US forces are being caught, what would be the outcome and why.
 
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