Littoral Combat Ships (LCS)

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

Thornblade said:

Why isn't LCS designed to equip "Harpoon" missiles in its ASuW Mission Pack at first place? It's potent and mature missile design and there is ample space on board. Surely they didn't think the only surface adversaries are Pirates/Drug smugglers and certain navies' RPG-equipped fast patrol boats... Or they think the LCS are dispensable? It's "littoral" all right, but not a light nor cheap ship - nearly 3,000 tonnes at full load and $350 mil ~ $450 million (FY2013) worth of asset with only a range of 3.5 miles/5.6km (surface launched) anti-surface missile is a joke.

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I (and many, many others) agree 110% with this.

it could easily be modified to equip it with 8 harpoon and the Griffin for those Iranian speed bpoats or other simial "swarming" attacks as they term it.

When the NLOS was cancelled (which itself was significantly shorter range than the Harpoon, but was at least credible and was an advanced missile, and the LCS was going to carry like 40 of them in special VLS cells), they went to this Griffin missile which is, as you say, a joke. Fact is, in addition to "speedboats," in the littorals the LCS is much more likely to face off against a 1,200-1,500 ton Corvettes which will be armed with 4-8 longer range SSMs which will put the LCS at a destinct disadvantage.

They are hoping her stealth, speed, agility, and counter-measures will help...and they will, but only to a point.

In the littorals she is supposed to operate, it is a distinct possibility that they will face hostile air threats for attack and especially for surveillance to be used to target her for those corvettes. She cannot count too much on her stealth or those other quailities. It's a horrible risk for those sailors and the expensive vessel and one that does not have to be taken.

So, yes, right now, and until she has upgrades for her surface action capabilities, the LCS is at a distinct disadvantage to other nation's corvette sized combatants in the littorals.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

Jeff Head said:

I (and many, many others) agree 110% with this.

it could easily be modified to equip it with 8 harpoon and the Griffin for those Iranian speed bpoats or other simial "swarming" attacks as they term it.

When the NLOS was cancelled (which itself was significantly shorter range than the Harpoon, but was at least credible and was an advanced missile, and the LCS was going to carry like 40 of them in special VLS cells), they went to this Griffin missile which is, as you say, a joke. Fact is, in addition to "speedboats," in the littorals the LCS is much more likely to face off against a 1,200-1,500 ton Corvettes which will be armed with 4-8 longer range SSMs which will put the LCS at a destinct disadvantage.

They are hoping her stealth, speed, agility, and counter-measures will help...and they will, but only to a point.

In the littorals she is supposed to operate, it is a distinct possibility that they will face hostile air threats for attack and especially for surveillance to be used to target her for those corvettes. She cannot count too much on her stealth or those other quailities. It's a horrible risk for those sailors and the expensive vessel and one that does not have to be taken.

So, yes, right now, and until she has upgrades for her surface action capabilities, the LCS is at a distinct disadvantage to other nation's corvette sized combatants in the littorals.

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I think the idea is that the LCSs will only work in the littorals off some really backward nation or in situations where they are unlikely to face off against rivals that have corvettes, frigates, SSM, strike fighters such as band of pirates, drug lords, terrorists etc OR they work in conjunction with more capable assets such as frigates and destroyers providing air cover and surface to surface offensive capabilities if actual nation states with more capable militaries are involved in the play.

I'm pretty sure those were the reasons why AShMs were not included as part of the package because her designers just didn't deem them necessary.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

kwaigonegin said:

I think the idea is that the LCSs will only work in the littorals off some really backward nation or in situations where they are unlikely to face off against rivals that have corvettes, frigates, SSM, strike fighters such as band of pirates, drug lords, terrorists etc OR they work in conjunction with more capable assets such as frigates and destroyers providing air cover and surface to surface offensive capabilities if actual nation states with more capable militaries are involved in the play.

I'm pretty sure those were the reasons why AShMs were not included as part of the package because her designers just didn't deem them necessary.

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The LCS vessels were billed and sold (and still are) as a game changer in the littorals, as a littoral war fighting machine and the whole idea was to not tie up a Burke or other major assett to have to baby sit them.

If they require that level of baby sitting, then they are $400 million a copy waste.

With the NLOS missile, they may have been able to pull it off the anti-surface mission, particularly as that program advanced and increased the range of those missiles (which were going to be about 30-40 nautical miles initially)...but now with the Griffin, they have lost all of that. That is why, until they find a suitable replacement for the NLOS, they should add the Harpoons. Relative to the cost of the vessels, the cost of two quad cannisters of Harpoons is dirt cheap.

The whole idea of the LCS was to be able to go into the Littorals and take on all comers in the littoral environment (other surface vessels there, mine fields there, submarines there). Now, in the surface warfare mission, they will not be able to do that unless they make some immediate changes and put in a good interim solution...the Griffin is not the complete solution. Good for swarming speed boats who posses small MGs, small naval guns, and RPGs perhaps...but absolutely useless against larger vessels of Corvett...or even FAC...size who carry longer range and heavier ASMs.

And that is why I say...if the US sent in an LCS, say into the Phillipine or South China Sea as they currently stand...say a small force of three of them...and they met up with two Type 056 vessels there, the LCS would be forced to withdraw in the face of an overwhelming range advantage and eight powerful anti-shipping missiles those two Type 056s could target them with.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

asif iqbal said:

LCS programme has many new dimensions, all pretty much new, the commissioning is taking time and its because they have lots to learn, during trials they simulate a simultaneous attacks from 4 directions using fast speed boats and is heavy use of under water mine clearing its all pretty intense for a boat of that size

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Commenting specifically on FAC's, Navies around the world have been dealing with such threats since the late 1800's with torpedo boats vs. torpedo boat destroyers. I don't feel that this is "new", though the torpedo threat has been replaced by anti-ship missiles.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

A.Man said:

Oh, It can fool me!

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Think they will meet in the SCS? Seems like the camo paint scheme is making a come back from the days of WW1 & WW2?

The Navy’s first littoral combat ship, USS Freedom, pulled into Pearl Harbor this morning on its way to history as the first ship in its class to head to Singapore on rotational deployments.

Four of the speedy, shallow-draft littoral (shallow water) ships are expected to deploy to Singapore with mission capabilities including theater security, mine countermeasures, surface warfare and anti-submarine warfare.

“This ship’s deployment lines up well with my priorities — this business of having credible combat capability forward where we can respond in a short period of time given the vastness of my area of operations,” said Adm. Cecil Haney, the commander of U.S. Pacific Fleet.

Haney added that the San Diego-based ship “will work hand in hand with our allies, partners and friends in the western Pacific as she gets out to that area about a month from now.”

The ships are designed to defeat “anti-access” threats such as mines, quiet diesel submarines and fast surface craft. The Navy identified the need for 52 of the littoral combat ships to meet its goal of a 306-ship fleet.

Perhaps the most striking aspect of the 378-foot Freedom — at least from a distance — is its paint scheme, a four-color camouflage that harks back to the “dazzle” patterns of World War I and II capital ships.

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Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

joshuatree said:

Think they will meet in the SCS? Seems like the camo paint scheme is making a come back from the days of WW1 & WW2?

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Here's how she actually looks with that new paint scheme.

Very interesting.

Better put a couple of quad cannisters of harpoons on her if they truly expect she will ever face off against any competent FACs, much less an OPV like the PLAN's Type 056. Although a couple of SH-60 helos, carrying two AGM-119 Penguins (55 km range) or up to eight AGM-114 Hellfire missiles (10 km range) could also get the job done..


Seeing that SH-60 with the Hellfires, and when considering that they can also carry two Penguins, is causing me to rethink my concerns with the interim solution the LCS is fielding for the anti-surface warfare role. If they carry two SH-60s, and if they stock up on anti-surface missiles for them (say 25 Hellfires and 12 Penguins) , then they would retain a very credible anti-surface capability in the littorals until such time as a longer range, ship luanched ASM is available for the mission pack.

LCS-1, Freedom to the western Pacific and South China Sea

The USS Freedom, LCS-1, is in the process of deploying to Sigapore and the Philipines for an extended rotational tour. This will be the first deployment of either LCS variant to the western Pacific.

And, while she was docked in Hawaii in transit, we got a new surprise for her...a new paint scheme:


Very interesting. Reminds one of the World War II paint schemes.

The Admiral over the Pacific Fleet stated that Freedom was there to exercise with other US Navy units and US Allies naval units to be prepared for littoral activites including ASW work, anti-mine work, and surface action as required against agressors in the littorals, particularly against fast speed boats and FAC (Fast Attack Craft).

My thought is, that they better put a couple of quad cannisters of harpoons on her if they truly expect she will ever face off against any competent FACs, much less an OPV like the PLAN's Type 056. Although a couple of SH-60 helos, carrying two AGM-119 Penguins (55 km range) or up to eight AGM-114 Hellfire missiles (10 km range) could also get the job done quite capably.

In fact, this causes me to rethink my concerns regarding the interim solution for the anti-surface mission. If they carry two Sea Hawks, which they are very capable of doing, and have say 24 AGM-114 Hell Fires and 12 AGM-119 Penguins with them, then they are in a position to deal with virtually any FAC or OPV out there...and at an aggregate greater range (because of the helos) than the opposition. The newer Penguins (Mk3s) has a range of 55 km themselves, and when you carry it out another 100 miles or so with the helo...well, then you are talking in excess of 200 kms. So, I think with that in mind (which obviously the US Navy had in mind the whole time) they will do just fine.

Going forward, I think a very good consideration for the LCS would be a combination of the much newer Naval Strike Missile (NSM - Range 185 km), developed by Norway to replace the Penguins (which it developed jointly with the US and Eurpoean nations) which could easily be launched from the LCS vessel itself, and the follow-on, currently under development, Joint Strike Missile (JSM), which is a new and improved version of the NSM for air launch, which the SH-60s could then launch and have them replace the Penguins.

The JSM will be used by the F-35 and in fact is being designed specifically to fit into the F-35s internal weapons bay. It has a range of 280 km itself when launched airborne.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

This made me think only the USN can afford such monumental mistakes in procurement, and still have things workout in the end. With budget cuts, how long will this last?

After all, if you want to use SH-60 as the offensive platform. There are much, much cheaper platform than this one.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

luhai said:

This made me think only the USN can afford such monumental mistakes in procurement, and still have things workout in the end. With budget cuts, how long will this last?

After all, if you want to use SH-60 as the offensive platform. There are much, much cheaper platform than this one.

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Well, if ASuW were the only mission...I would agree completely as regards the helos being used for offense in the littorals. but that will be one of several offensive options they have for ASuW in the end. 57 mm naval gun, two 30mm autocannons, short range ASMs, and ultimately intermediate to long range ASMs fired from the vessel...and added to that, the helos..

But, on top of that, this vessel is also expected to take on the anti-mine and mine clearing tole, the ASW roles, and the Special Operations insertion role in the littorals. So...with all of those in mind, and the fact that they will be replacing the Perry FFGs, the Avenger MCMs, and various other small craft used in the littorals to date...it begins to make a little better sense.

Re: Type 056 OPV/Corvette

Jeff Head said:

Well, if ASuW were the only mission...I would agree completely as regards the helos being used for offense in the littorals. but that will be one of several offensive options they have for ASuW in the end. 57 mm naval gun, two 30mm autocannons, short range ASMs, and ultimately intermediate to long range ASMs fired from the vessel...and added to that, the helos..

But, on top of that, this vessel is also expected to take on the anti-mine and mine clearing tole, the ASW roles, and the Special Operations insertion role in the littorals. So...with all of those in mind, and the fact that they will be replacing the Perry FFGs, the Avenger MCMs, and various other small craft used in the littorals to date...it begins to make a little better sense.

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But for 430 Million dollars a piece? That's basically about how much the italian FREMMs cost (560 Million).... And It's about the cost of 2 Type 054As (~250-300 Million) and god knows how many Type 056s. (All 10?)

As a tax payer, I expected better. If it's a 100 million dollars boat, then it's fine. If it's a truly a OPV replacement frigate, that's fine too. But the current state... Well, like i said "only the USN can afford such monumental mistakes in procurement, and still have things workout in the end. With budget cuts, how long will this last?"

I think the folk at Pentagon should take a page from the Type 056, and learn to put a cap on scope creep that's often peddled by Defense companies, thus only end up with a ship it really needs. 056 could have creeped to having a 24 unit RAM, Helo Hanger, VLS with C-704/C-705/ASW C-70X/SD-10, TAS etc. and end up costing more than the 054. But it didn't, and that's a good thing. Sometimes we put lots of features on the wishlist, but forgot much it will cost, and whether these things will be used in the mission the vessels are designed for.