let chinese talk about the gunpowder weapon in ancient age

i am a han (we chinese call ourselves "han")

i have not been to other country ,so my english may be very poor,sorry

i find that many of u are interested in ancient gunpowder weapons in china

so i want to say someting

we han invented gunpowder weapon twice times ,because the civilaztion is distoried for several times by barbarians(the recent Destruction is known as the manchu barbarians conquest)

the first time,we use gunpowder weapon is in Cao Wei(one kingdom of the famous three kingdoms)

the weapon is "fire launch stones"(火射连石)．

maybe that is the "fire rockets" u talked about,beacause someone also call it "fire arrow"("fire rockers" equal to "fire arrow" in modern chinese ,but the word should be translated as "fire arrow" in this period).

"陈仓：魏明帝遣将军太原郝昭筑。陈仓城成，诸葛亮围之……亮以数万人攻昭千余人，以云梯冲车地道逼射昭，昭以火射连石拒之，亮不利而还。"
——《水经注》

亮……起云梯冲车等以临城，昭于是以火箭逆射云梯，梯然，梯上人皆烧死。"
——《魏略》

the weapon contributed to a Victory of Cao Wei

in this battle Cao Wei equipped with "fire launch stones" defeat Shu Han equipped with the famous chu-ko-nu(belived be invented by zhuge-kongming.by the way ,chu-ko-nu is mainly used as large equipment on battleships or city danfence equipment than singleuseweapon.


but i have to say the "fire launch stones" may probably be a city defense weapon instead of a field weapon.

and no evidence prove that many of Cao Wei army is equipped with "fire launch stones"

after three kingdoms age,our Civilization is destoried by barbarians(known as the "five barbarians age")

so we have to invent gunpowder weapon for another time

the mature gunpowder singleuseweapon is invented in Song Dynasty

i will be glade if the article helps

yuyueyuximing said:

equipped with the famous chu-ko-nu(belived be invented by zhuge-kongming.by the way ,chu-ko-nu is mainly used as large equipment on battleships or city danfence equipment than singleuseweapon.

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I have limited knowledge on when was the first usage of gunpowder weapon in ancient China, but I bet to differ with your article on the Chu-ko-nu.

The Chu-ko-nu (Zhuge nu) or what is more accurately called the Repeated Crossbow - lian nu (連弩) was not design by Zhuge liang (Zhuge Kongming) of the three kingdom. Because the earliest sample of the Lian Nu was actually unearthed in a tomb which was dated to 4th century BC. At that time Zhuge Liang was still not around.

It is a simple mechanism and was normally used by infantry or crossbow men and not used as large equipment. Large and more complex lian nu was designed and build in latter stage and was being used even at the later stage of the Qing Dynasty.

Reference:

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Of course u are right

"Chu Lian Nu" is found by archaeologists for just few years,and it is belived that Chu-ko-nu may be the improvement model of "Chu Lian Nu"

but the Chu-ko-nu is not just the copy of "Chu Lian Nu",for example,"Chu Lian Nu" isnot the the application of Lever Principle while Chu-ko-nu is.and if my english is better,i may mention the other difference.

and u mentioned the Qing Dynasty

sorry,the Manchu Dynasty can never represent China,it is ridiculous to belive a civilization is herself when she is ruled by Tatars.

Some Chinese will feel offended if others say so.

now the question,How is Chu-ko-nu used?

first,we donnot use it as our standard singleuseweapon

Tang Dynasty use bow and crossbow as their singleuseweapon

Also the Chu-ko-nu isnot standard singleuseweapon in Song Dynasty.They use "great arm bow"(神臂弓,belived as a kind of crossbow)as their singleuseweapon

and how about Ming Dynasty? i have a list of common ming weapons

《明英宗实录》卷五三：戊辰南京兵仗居奏,自宣德八年成造军器火器共二百四十四万有奇,而工部下有司市物料今尚未完,乞令追完,庶不误军需.
《明神宗实录》卷一六七,3249-3252页记载了万历十四年(1586年)兵部派人检查九边储备火器火药状况的奏章:在延绥,实在军器火器炸药共二百一十五万八千三百零,火箭火线药桶缸坛等项四十三万四百二十个条支,铅铁石子三百一十六万三千六百余斤个.在宁夏,实在军器火器共一百一十五万七千六百九十九件,火箭火线铅铁石子药袋硫磺焰硝共一百三十六万二千七百四十一斤件.在甘肃,实在军器火器共二百二十九万八千七百一十六件,火药硝黄五万七千三百六十八斤,火线铅铁石子九十七万三千五百五十二条个...又河西关西平凉各道实在军器火器火药火线石子火箭等项共二百三万七千五百有零……
王士翘撰《西关志》（1548年序刻本）居庸卷记载：昌镇驻军武器主要有军器和神器两大类：其军器有：盔、甲、长枪，圆木挨牌、长木牌、斩马刀、撒袋、弓、弦、箭、攒竹长枪、腰刀。神器有神枪、大将军铁炮、二将军铁炮、大将军铜炮、小将军铜炮、神铳、大铜佛郎机、神炮、飞炮、铜铳、铁铳、马上佛郎机、神箭、铁宣风炮、缨子炮、铁佛郎机、铁三起炮、碗口炮、小神炮、铁蒺藜、新置的器械有九龙盘枪、铁鞭枪、火箭盘枪，子母炮、火箭等。车有偏厢车、骡驾、望车、元戎车、鼓车。

if u can read chinese,u will find no Chu-ko-nu on it,though so many unfamiliar weapon is mentioned.

and,so unfortunately,people in Ming Dynasty can hold Chu-ko-nu while the crossbow is prohibited.that really tell us something,right?

Chu-ko-nu is not very qualified singleuseweapon,maybe it has a high-fire-rate,but the range is so poor and the damage is so week(proved by mordern Chu-ko-nu copy),so it is used as big equipment more offern according to the record from Ming Dynasty

On this question,even many chinese donnot know that clearly and i will say u have done a very good work.

Well,many han will laugh to death after watching foreign videos about our history

Chu-ko-nu is one of the famous misunderstanding case.

Everyone who shot Chu-ko-nu copy himself will have a intuitive feeling on its poor range and damage

if u make me to write something about Gastraphetes,i may come to a conclusion in more ridiculous way.

yuyueyuximing said:

i am a han (we chinese call ourselves "han")

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First of all, this is the first time I've heard a Chinese calling himself "Han". As you know, China has many (56) minority groups and any of them, not only Han, will/should proudly call themselves Chinese. So one can be a Chinese and not a Han.

yuyueyuximing said:

(the recent Destruction is known as the manchu barbarians conquest)

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This is also the first time I heard the establishment of Qing dynasty being called like you have called it. What is the Chinese term you are referring to? Also, I don't think the Chinese civilization was destroyed by any of the barbarians. The DYNASTIES were destroyed, but the Chinese civilization was always continuous. This is especially true for the Qing Dynasty. Qing emperors so desperately tries to avoid the fate of Mongolians and they tried to learn the Han civilization. In the end, Manchurian culture was completely assimilated and they became Hans. To this day, only a few Manchu people can still speak the language.

So in short, Chinese civilization was never destroyed!

yuyueyuximing said:

after three kingdoms age,our Civilization is destoried by barbarians(known as the "five barbarians age")

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Again, this is the first time I've heard people calling this period by that name. What is the Chinese term you are talking about? As far as I can tell, it was Western and eastern Jin dynasties after 3 Kingdom. The "five barbarian age" you talk about may be the "five dynasties and ten kingdoms". That was after Tang dynasty, almost 650 years apart. The only close "barbarian" in the period you talk about would be the Northern dynasty, which was over a hundred years after 3 Kingdom. The dynasty was under Xianbei people, only 1 NOT 5 barbarians. But like Manchurians, the emperor who had Xianbei father and Chinese mother, enforced laws to force Xianbei people to learn the Han way, AKA the Chinese civilization. So Chinese civilization was never destroyed.

It has been agreed among all scholars, Chinese and Western, that Chinese civilization is one of only a few that was always continuous and has never been destroyed.

vesicles said:

First of all, this is the first time I've heard a Chinese calling himself "Han". As you know, China has many (56) minority groups and any of them, not only Han, will/should proudly call themselves Chinese. So one can be a Chinese and not a Han.

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It's really sad that some Chinese have reverted to racism in order to feel superior about themselves.

To the OP: do you want Tibet and Xinjiang to separate or something? By claiming that Chinese = Han, you're giving those separatists the *exact* ammunition that they need.

Again, this is the first time I've heard people calling this period by that name. What is the Chinese term you are talking about? As far as I can tell, it was Western and eastern Jin dynasties after 3 Kingdom. The "five barbarian age" you talk about may be the "five dynasties and ten kingdoms".

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The "Five dynasties and ten kingdoms" is what he's referring to. In some historical texts, it is referred to as "wu hu luan hua", or "five barbarian hordes really messing up China".

Of course, such a view completely ignores the fact that the Han and Tang Dynasties routinely slaughtered nomadic tribes in their hunger for conquest, and that the Jin dynasty was utterly incompetent.

solarz said:

It's really sad that some Chinese have reverted to racism in order to feel superior about themselves.

To the OP: do you want Tibet and Xinjiang to separate or something? By claiming that Chinese = Han, you're giving those separatists the *exact* ammunition that they need.

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Yeah, it's truly odd that someone actually calls himself Han. I don't think Chinese ever call themselves "Han" except in the Han dynasty... I've had my share of interacting with my fellow Chinese, both when I was in China and when I came to the States. I have never ever ever heard people referring to themselves as "Hi, my name is so-and-so and I am a Han..." :nono::nono::nono: I'm having goosebumps..

solarz said:

The "Five dynasties and ten kingdoms" is what he's referring to. In some historical texts, it is referred to as "wu hu luan hua", or "five barbarian hordes really messing up China".

Of course, such a view completely ignores the fact that the Han and Tang Dynasties routinely slaughtered nomadic tribes in their hunger for conquest, and that the Jin dynasty was utterly incompetent.

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Still, that's 650 years after the 3 Kingdom. And they never even touched Chinese culture. To say "Chinese civilization was destroyed" is flat-out wrong. I equate that period more to the Spring and Autumn/Warring States period since many warlords fought for dominance. Of course, there were many "barbarians" in Zhou dynasty, just like the "five dynasty" era. Qin (North), Wu (Southeast) and Chu (Southwest) would be good examples.

vesicles said:

Still, that's 650 years after the 3 Kingdom. And they never even touched Chinese culture. To say "Chinese civilization was destroyed" is flat-out wrong.

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If that's his standard of "Chinese civilization is destroyed", then Chinese civilization gets destroyed every time there's a dynasty change. Maybe the OP only counts death and destruction if it's non-Hans who do it...

Actually I believe when he said the five dynasties, he meant wu hu shi liu guo (五胡十六国). Which was in the Northern, Southern dynasty era (两晋南北朝). The five barbarians are actually nations that are built by five minorities - Xiong Nu (匈奴), Xian Bei (鲜卑), Jie (羯), Zhi race(氐族), Jiang (羌) and Ba Zhi (巴氐). They are the five nations that actually invaded China in the 5th Century BC.

The sixteen nations as mentioned are actually sixteen states (前涼, 後涼, 南涼, 北涼, 西涼, 前趙 (漢), 後趙, 前秦, 後秦, 西秦, 前燕, 後燕, 南燕, 北燕, 夏, 成漢).

But actually never was China fully occupied by these five barbarains tribes and I believe they basically only controlled the northern area of China, thus the Northern, Southern era.

Reference:

1)
2)

China has many (56) minority groups and any of them, not only Han, will/should proudly call themselves Chinese
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"should proudly call themselves Chinese"means he is a true chinese(han),we chinese always translate "han" to "chinese",and i will like to translate "han" to "han".Does it hurt anyone?



which translate is better? i "should proudly call myself Chinese" to suggest that i am a han,or i talk out that i am a han?


do you want Tibet and Xinjiang to separate or something?
__________________________________________________
when i use "chinese"(han),i probably mention the nation(han),if u guys want to talk about Nationality,u guys talk that yourselves.it is none of my business

and today their are more han than ancient local people in Tibet and Xinjiang(if u trace back to Tang Dynasty,there are lots of han in Xinjiang at that time)

why they will be separated,we han is a majority!

if u talk about the the ownership of the region,u'd better ask the majority

i think they will probably be separated if america return their land to Iroquois or Lakota.

i make myself understandble?



"wu hu luan hua", or "five barbarian hordes really messing up China"
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i am sorry if i use "distory" inaccurate,u can replace "distory" by "serious injury" or anything else

well, u have a good comparison,"An Elephant in a China Shop"

sorry for my poor english for another time


again the Qing Dynasty question
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To do a brief description of manchu's evil is a huge work

if i told u that manchu's army is famous for its Rape,Robbery and Massacre (not only before the manchu dynasty but also through the whole dynasty) u may not have an impression,i will tell u a case ,in 1864,"tai ping tian guo" war, Qing army kill all the women and children they find in nanjing city and suburban.500,000 people may die in nanjing Massacre,and most of them are peasants,women and children.

“分段搜杀，三日之间毙贼共十余万人。秦淮长河，尸首如麻”，“城内自伪宫逆府以及民房悉付一炷”，“万室焚烧，百物荡尽，而贡院幸存”， “自五代以来，生灵涂炭，殆无愈于今日。”

曾国藩的幕僚赵烈文在《能静居日记》记载：“沿街死尸十之九皆老者。其幼孩未满二三岁者亦斫戮以为戏，匍匐道上。妇女四十岁以下者一人俱无，老者无不负伤，或十余刀，数十刀”。

“金陵之役，伏尸百万，秦淮尽赤；号哭之声，震动四野。”所谓伏尸百万，除了战死者，就是曾国藩在城内外屠杀的平民。“皖南及江宁各属，市人肉以相食，或数十里野无耕种，村无炊烟。”

after the Massacre,not a single General is blamed for that,,i cannot understand how that happens in any other history of china.even a han emperor can never keep his throne after doing that kind of thing

And that kind of things happened again and again from nurhaci to Cixi.

And u guys may know about same famous manchu proverb



we should continue the qing dynasty but never the china (保大清不保中国)

we can give our interest to the foreigner but never to our han slave (宁赠友邦，不予家奴)

i wonder why the authority admit the Legitimacy of qing dynasty and think that will prevent Tibet and Xinjiang from independence.

but sorry,the factor that prevent the independence of Tibet and Xinjiang is the han in there and the PLA in there of course