Lessons for China to learn from Ukraine conflict for Taiwan scenario

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MrGoose

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In order to accomplish such a goal, it would take a Chinese economy capable of trillions of dollars of military buildup in order to build up such magazine depth, and also be able of outgrowing the US's strategic depth.
* US's strategic magazine depth
I think the PLA would have to at least equal the US military in size, and have at least an order of magnitude more ballistic and cruise missiles to do such a thing.
* an order of magnitude more ballistic and cruise missiles than the PLA has right now, to do such a thing. All this does not include the fact that the US would inevitably grow its own reserves upon learning of any Chinese military buildup.
 

FriedButter

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* US's strategic magazine depth

* an order of magnitude more ballistic and cruise missiles than the PLA has right now, to do such a thing. All this does not include the fact that the US would inevitably grow its own reserves upon learning of any Chinese military buildup.

And what grounds do you have for your suggestion that the US has several folds more munitions than China and has an military industrial output that easily surpass China? When even western think tanks don’t agree either your opinion either.
 

Fedupwithlies

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And what grounds do you have for your suggestion that the US has several folds more munitions than China and has an military industrial output that easily surpass China? When even western think tanks don’t agree either your opinion either.
I don't think he means the US has more munitions than China, I think he means China needs more munitions than China does now.

I also think it isn't an unreasonable assumption that the US will shift into war-time production mode in the event of a US-China war.

The question is, what does "war-time production" look like for the US? There's a lot of questions that we ask on this forum that can't be answered.
 

vincent

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I don't think he means the US has more munitions than China, I think he means China needs more munitions than China does now.

I also think it isn't an unreasonable assumption that the US will shift into war-time production mode in the event of a US-China war.

The question is, what does "war-time production" look like for the US? There's a lot of questions that we ask on this forum that can't be answered.
No one outside of PLA knows how much precision munitions PLA has.
 

MrGoose

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And what grounds do you have for your suggestion that the US has several folds more munitions than China and has an military industrial output that easily surpass China? When even western think tanks don’t agree either your opinion either.
The US has a military that rivals the PLA in size several times over and thus should have several times more advanced munitions.

The US doesn't need a military industrial output that surpasses China for China to lose a war of attrition. The way geography works, China cannot really damage America's industrial centers, but the US could over time, attrit Chinese industrial centers. To prevent this from happening, China must be prepared (and thus sufficiently armed) to destroy the entirety of all US aligned forces and their supporting infrastructure in the Western Pacific along with the rest of US forces when they inevitably are brought to bear against China.


The PLA will need to at least equal the size of the US military, if not be larger than it in order to properly wage a prolonged war of attrition against the US where the US brings its entire military might to bear against the PLA.

In such a war, we should expect to see the US kicked out past the 2nd island chain in a PLA opening strike. But the US has forces and bases in Australia, Alaska and Hawaii that would be untouched and thus be capable of supporting future missions to slowly regain air superiority within the Western pacific. Hypothetically, that might look like having 2 or 3 CSGs regain air superiority over Hokkaido, and then repairing Chitose Air base and spinning up another airbases from other airports on Hokkaido and using Hokkaido as a stepping stone to regain air superiority over the rest of Japan and then using that to degrade Chinese industrial centers.

Thus it is crucial that China have the magazine depth to destroy whatever mass of USN assets that shows up. In a worst case scenario that would be every CSG plus the French and British carrier groups, where every escort is outfitted with a missile defense focused loadout. So you need enough missiles to match that, and more to spare.

The most important point is that the PLA needs to have the firepower for the worst case scenario. Stakes are so high for China in any US-China war, that victory has to be guaranteed regardless of what the US will bring to bear.
 

birdlikefood

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The US has a military that rivals the PLA in size several times over and thus should have several times more advanced munitions.

When discussing serious issues, you need to convince the other party with data and logic.

Q: The US has a military that rivals the PLA in size several times over.
A: Sorry, this statement is not true from multiple sources of information, whether it is in terms of number of people or weapons.

Q: Thus should have several times more advanced munitions
A: The previous sentence cannot deduce the conclusion of this sentence.

The most important point is that the PLA needs to have the firepower for the worst case scenario. Stakes are so high for China in any US-China war, that victory has to be guaranteed regardless of what the US will bring to bear.

Totally agree.
 

MrGoose

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When discussing serious issues, you need to convince the other party with data and logic.

Q: The US has a military that rivals the PLA in size several times over.
A: Sorry, this statement is not true from multiple sources of information, whether it is in terms of number of people or weapons.

Q: Thus should have several times more advanced munitions
A: The previous sentence cannot deduce the conclusion of this sentence.

Sorry what I should have said is, the USN and allied navies are several times the size of the PLA both in terms of tonnage and number of surface combatants. Those surface combatants are of similar quality to PLAN surface combatants.

A similar situation exists with the US Air Force, USN Air Force vs the PLAAF.

If we assume that US ships and aircraft are armed with similarly advanced munitions, then because there are more ships and aircraft, the US has several times more advanced munitions than the PLA.

Even if I am incorrect and the US does not have as many munitions as I am saying they have, the PLA should still plan on having more munitions than what am saying the US has, in order to be prepared for a long war of attrition and prevent shell/ munition hunger.
 

tankphobia

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Even if I am incorrect and the US does not have as many munitions as I am saying they have, the PLA should still plan on having more munitions than what am saying the US has, in order to be prepared for a long war of attrition and prevent shell/ munition hunger.
Munitions degrade if not used, I think modern factories are so much more productive than WW2 levels that ammunition won't be as much of an issue as people think if countries actually enter war economy. Russia has barely mobilized its economy for example and has massively increased equipment output, despite heavy sanctions from the West. So having massive stockpiles aren't the key to victory, since neither China nor USA can meaningfully degrade each other's industrial capacity to begin with.

We're only laser focused on precision and quality because we're in peace time, I would not be surprised if many of the components in missiles are able to be substituted by cheaper COTS components to greatly accelerate production, raising the failure rate from 1/10000 to 1/1000 would be acceptable if you're building 10000 missiles instead of 500.
 

tphuang

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Sorry what I should have said is, the USN and allied navies are several times the size of the PLA both in terms of tonnage and number of surface combatants. Those surface combatants are of similar quality to PLAN surface combatants.

A similar situation exists with the US Air Force, USN Air Force vs the PLAAF.

If we assume that US ships and aircraft are armed with similarly advanced munitions, then because there are more ships and aircraft, the US has several times more advanced munitions than the PLA.

Even if I am incorrect and the US does not have as many munitions as I am saying they have, the PLA should still plan on having more munitions than what am saying the US has, in order to be prepared for a long war of attrition and prevent shell/ munition hunger.
Care to show some proof of that?

Who are these allies that can get involved in any notable manner outside of JMSDF?

Have you looked into uptime vs downtime of USN vs PLAN?

Have you looked at # of air fields available to PLAAF vs USAF in theater, the # of hardened hangars, amount of protection around that air fields?

Have you looked at uptime and availability of fleet?

I will just stop here for now, but I would advise you to read up on westpac thread.
 
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