Ladakh Flash Point

Status
Not open for further replies.
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Click to expand...

There are parts of India that wishes to continue with the wool over eyes routine and propagate a "win".

Well India "won" with losing access to F4 to F8, land that it claims. Also there is still no indication of disengagement of PLA in Gogra, hot springs, depsang. Despite Indian government recognising that China is occupying these lands that India claims. If PLA doesn't move back from those forward positions (so forward the stretch made up ~80% of Indian claims), then India not only lost out but lost out very poorly. I'm assuming those areas will soon be vacated by PLA otherwise China truly is taking a little too much but who knows what the entire picture is. India was aggressive from 2013 to 2019 and perhaps it is absolutely correct to make harsh demands.

The other aspect of Indian media is releasing the idea that India may have lost out on disengagement deals.

Just because Indian media has been proven unreliable, doesn't mean that there aren't different aspects to it. Like I said. There is the "vee are Super Dupa Jai Hind and vee VoN!!" side and there are the "hold on a minute, what's actually happening and what are the facts and what are officials and authorities saying from both sides" aspect to Indian media.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
There are obvious benefits to both India and China, but there are few is any benefits to Pakistan since this agreement just invalidates its stance on Kashmir post Article 370 revocation. Pakistan would not agree to this if it felt that India was in a position of weakness in Ladakh, which it would be if those claims of 1000 km lost were true.

The only benefit Pakistan gets is it gets to focus more on its Afghan border, which it may need to do since Biden will likely move the US back into Afghanistan. But this is off topic.
Click to expand...

Well Pakistan managed to take half of Kashmir from Indian influence and arguably also Indian control. Even if they lose the other half, you gotta realise they are up. Same with the Kashmiris unfortunately though they are caught in between.

A ceasefire between the two is good for both. However I doubt it would last since one or both will be looking at less obvious ways to build up and prepare for more violence, even if it is done in good intention, it will probably spark more flare ups. A buffer is a good thing here as well if it can be properly implemented.
 
T

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
There are parts of India that wishes to continue with the wool over eyes routine and propagate a "win".

Well India "won" with losing access to F4 to F8, land that it claims. Also there is still no indication of disengagement of PLA in Gogra, hot springs, depsang. Despite Indian government recognising that China is occupying these lands that India claims. If PLA doesn't move back from those forward positions (so forward the stretch made up ~80% of Indian claims), then India not only lost out but lost out very poorly. I'm assuming those areas will soon be vacated by PLA otherwise China truly is taking a little too much but who knows what the entire picture is. India was aggressive from 2013 to 2019 and perhaps it is absolutely correct to make harsh demands.

The other aspect of Indian media is releasing the idea that India may have lost out on disengagement deals.

Just because Indian media has been proven unreliable, doesn't mean that there aren't different aspects to it. Like I said. There is the "vee are Super Dupa Jai Hind and vee VoN!!" side and there are the "hold on a minute, what's actually happening and what are the facts and what are officials and authorities saying from both sides" aspect to Indian media.
Click to expand...
When did the Indian government officially say that china is occupying land in those areas? Please provide an official statement or source. As i have said, in Gogra and hot springs both sides are very close but on opposite sides of the LAC. During the standoff, China created temporary camps close to India's permanent Gogra base that were not there before. That is why Hot Springs and Gogra are standoff locations.



https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366248078580195332
In depsang, the situation is the same as it has been for decades. India is trying to solve that as a seperate issue from the recent standoff.

And I simply posted that article(from Foreign Policy,a non-Indian source) as a counter to yours. And that article states facts, even if you don't like them. But then again, according to you any source that supports the Indian narrative is unreliable, even if they are the likes of Foreign policy, CNN, Reuters, etc. which are all showing China pulling back by more than 60 km and Indian troops on the north bank mostly unchanged. BTW, I thought retired Indian generals were not reliable? I have read many articles by Gen. Mehta, and he is very biased, just as much if not more than Col. Dinny, whom you discredited.

And it is funny how you say India lost badly, when it was China that pulled back more.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
When did the Indian government officially say that china is occupying land in those areas? Please provide an official statement or source. As i have said, in Gogra and hot springs both sides are very close but on opposite sides of the LAC. During the standoff, China created temporary camps close to India's permanent Gogra base that were not there before. That is why Hot Springs and Gogra are standoff locations.

And I fail to see how India lost, as you say, when it was China that pulled back more.

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1366248078580195332
In depsang, the situation is the same as it has been for decades. India is trying to solve that as a seperate issue from the recent standoff.

And I simply posted that article(from Foreign Policy,a non-Indian source) as a counter to yours. And that article states facts, even if you don't like them. But then again, according to you any source that supports the Indian narrative is unreliable, even if they are the likes of Foreign policy, CNN, Reuters, etc. which are all showing China pulling back by more than 60 km and Indian troops on the north bank mostly unchanged. BTW, I thought retired Indian generals were not reliable? I have read many articles by Gen. Mehta, and he is very biased, just as much if not more than Col. Dinny, whom you discredited.

An
Click to expand...

Do you remember that Indian MOD document issued as public statement? Yeah that one officially recognised that China was on Indian claimed lands and then some. I don't want to dig it out but it was issued around Feb 10th.

So China going two steps forwards and one step back means China lost more land? all the while got India to agree to take a step back?? lol okay got it.

Your own quoted twitter handle said that " both militaries where deployments have remained unchanged since late 2020". Not the same as it has been for decades. If you recall, changes happened in 2020.
 
T

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
When did I say China lost land? Simply that China retreated more. And that is a fact. China withdrew from finger 4 to behind Finger 8. India moved temporary camps behind finger 4 back to the permanent base at finger 3, only a few hundred meters. Looks like two steps forward, two steps back for China.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
And I simply posted that article(from Foreign Policy,a non-Indian source) as a counter to yours. And that article states facts, even if you don't like them. But then again, according to you any source that supports the Indian narrative is unreliable, even if they are the likes of Foreign policy, CNN, Reuters, etc. which are all showing China pulling back by more than 60 km and Indian troops on the north bank mostly unchanged. BTW, I thought retired Indian generals were not reliable? I have read many articles by Gen. Mehta, and he is very biased, just as much if not more than Col. Dinny, whom you discredited.

And it is funny how you say India lost badly, when it was China that pulled back more.
Click to expand...

Indian military leaders and ex military have more of a reason to support India and India's narratives. Therefore the Indian positive material should be regarded as questionable (not necessarily untrue) while the negative material should be paid attention to because it goes against the well founded assumption that these people serve India.

India and China were both patrolling F4 to F8. China offered settlement somewhere in between. India says no we want everything to F8. China sends PLA to push India behind F4. Successfully accomplished. India unable to push PLA out for whole year. China demands India rethink that deal. India does and concedes. China pulls PLA back. India agrees to stay behind F3. Now remind me how China "pulled back more" lol.
 
T

twineedle

Junior Member
Registered Member
ougoah said:
Do you remember that Indian MOD document issued as public statement? Yeah that one officially recognised that China was on Indian claimed lands and then some. I don't want to dig it out but it was issued around Feb 10th.

So China going two steps forwards and one step back means China lost more land? all the while got India to agree to take a step back?? lol okay got it.

Your own quoted twitter handle said that " both militaries where deployments have remained unchanged since late 2020". Not the same as it has been for decades. If you recall, changes happened in 2020.
Click to expand...
I was referring to Depsang, not Gogra and hot springs. That map I posted shows that China has set up new camps last year very close to Gogra, but on the Chinese side of the LAC. BTW, there is no dispute at Gogra and Hot Springs.
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
When did I say China lost land? Simply that China retreated more. And that is a fact. China withdrew from finger 4 to behind Finger 8. India moved temporary camps behind finger 4 back to the permanent base at finger 3, only a few hundred meters. Looks like two steps forward, two steps back for China.
Click to expand...

It "retreated" more because you lot agreed to retreat even further lololol.

PLA "retreated" more because it went in. It "retreated" once you lot agreed to China's 1959 offer and play it down. It remains to be seen if China will even "retreat" from those other points which have not yet been disengaged.

If Indian military invaded into Tibet and settled there for a year without being challenged by PLA and removed by PLA, and then China agrees to give India xyz benefits in return for IA "retreating". Would you think that is a Chinese victory and would you consider it an IA retreat in earnest?
 
O

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
twineedle said:
I believe I was referring to Depsang, not Gogra and hot springs. That map I posted shows that China has set up new camps last year very close to Gogra, but on the Chinese side of the LAC. BTW, there is no dispute at Gogra and Hot Springs.
Click to expand...

But India's MOD mentioned that PLA is sitting in Gogra, Hot Springs, and Depsang. A former Indian four star general (recently changed posts) also mentioned that India intruded beyond the literal old idea of where the LAC was far more than PLA.

China simply never wanted to F3. It was just bargaining nonsense. And like what the Indian four star said, the PLA rarely patrolled in probably because they just don't want the drama. However the PLA have confronted IA when IA did those intrusions and the frequency was going up and the potential and actual violence too. This land is nothing and the struggle is purely political in nature and to make certain realities known and certain subtext more obvious to the political ruling class in India. China has been offering settlement and met with India arrogance since the 1950s.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top