At least it's not presenting random made up names or PLA Generals from the 1950s. It's also not claiming 1:12 kill ratio performed by almighty Bihari regimentis or 100 PLA kills by 50 IA prisoners of war who were handed back to the IA.
Ladakh Flash Point
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At least it's not presenting random made up names or PLA Generals from the 1950s. It's also not claiming 1:12 kill ratio performed by almighty Bihari regimentis or 100 PLA kills by 50 IA prisoners of war who were handed back to the IA.
@Brumby
I'm aware that there's considerable complexity beyond simply the G-rating of an aircraft.
The thing is, though, with the ITR, the ITR seems to be used as a last-ditch effort to dodge missiles. If you look at the F-35, for instance, the designers did not overly prioritize STR for dogfights, but they emphasized ITR.
Why is that? With highly agile missiles, STR isn't going to allow you to dodge a missile, as others have said, defeating the seeker head is more useful. However, ITR can potentially allow you to reach an acceleration that a missile can't follow, and while you can't use 11G ITR repeatedly, it does present a more difficult to hit opponent than a conventional 9G aircraft. Of course, in the case of the Rafale, the 11G ITR is emergency ITR; and well, if the Rafale has emergency 11G ITR, what other aircraft have classified 11G ITR?
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The other thing to point out is that at least in the Russian case, they claim to have changed flight suits or flight training to allow pilots to survive / sustain short 11G events, and that IIRC, humans can survive 39G short-term acceleration on the vertical.
I've never said that the Rafale or Su-57 is capable of SUSTAINED 11G, and sustained 11G would be quite useless, as it would quickly incapacitate or kill the pilot. But instantaneous, for a quick jink of 1-2 missiles? Whole other story.
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On the IRST, one common feature in consumer cameras these days is a type of pixel binning or synthetic aperture, where multiple shots are analyzed by signal processing to create a higher resolution image. It's fairly reasonable to suspect that quasi-modern IRST as on the Indian Rafales will have such features to increase sensitivity.
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So I'm just pointing out the capabilities of the Rafale. Quite likely, as you've said, factors like force integration, C4I, and training on both sides will outweigh the pure technological capabilities of the Rafale, especially since it comes in small numbers and is BVR-bait for any sufficiently maneuverable long-ranged missile due to its non-stealth / LO nature.
On the other hand, it has IRST of some capability that can likely allow it to detect the J-20 at ranges further than the simple 5-20km implied by the capabilities of the Rafale's radar and the probable J-20 RCS profile, especially if the J-20 makes the mistake of increasing speed to increase its IR profile.
And the Meteor offsets the PL-15 to an extent; the current Meteor is more jammable compared to the PL-15, given its lack of AESA, but when you compare the probable effective range on the Meteor (variable thrust ramjet) vs the probable effective range on the PL-15 (dual-pulse rocket), it begins to resemble a toss-up.
I'm aware that there's considerable complexity beyond simply the G-rating of an aircraft.
The thing is, though, with the ITR, the ITR seems to be used as a last-ditch effort to dodge missiles. If you look at the F-35, for instance, the designers did not overly prioritize STR for dogfights, but they emphasized ITR.
Why is that? With highly agile missiles, STR isn't going to allow you to dodge a missile, as others have said, defeating the seeker head is more useful. However, ITR can potentially allow you to reach an acceleration that a missile can't follow, and while you can't use 11G ITR repeatedly, it does present a more difficult to hit opponent than a conventional 9G aircraft. Of course, in the case of the Rafale, the 11G ITR is emergency ITR; and well, if the Rafale has emergency 11G ITR, what other aircraft have classified 11G ITR?
===
The other thing to point out is that at least in the Russian case, they claim to have changed flight suits or flight training to allow pilots to survive / sustain short 11G events, and that IIRC, humans can survive 39G short-term acceleration on the vertical.
I've never said that the Rafale or Su-57 is capable of SUSTAINED 11G, and sustained 11G would be quite useless, as it would quickly incapacitate or kill the pilot. But instantaneous, for a quick jink of 1-2 missiles? Whole other story.
===
On the IRST, one common feature in consumer cameras these days is a type of pixel binning or synthetic aperture, where multiple shots are analyzed by signal processing to create a higher resolution image. It's fairly reasonable to suspect that quasi-modern IRST as on the Indian Rafales will have such features to increase sensitivity.
===
So I'm just pointing out the capabilities of the Rafale. Quite likely, as you've said, factors like force integration, C4I, and training on both sides will outweigh the pure technological capabilities of the Rafale, especially since it comes in small numbers and is BVR-bait for any sufficiently maneuverable long-ranged missile due to its non-stealth / LO nature.
On the other hand, it has IRST of some capability that can likely allow it to detect the J-20 at ranges further than the simple 5-20km implied by the capabilities of the Rafale's radar and the probable J-20 RCS profile, especially if the J-20 makes the mistake of increasing speed to increase its IR profile.
And the Meteor offsets the PL-15 to an extent; the current Meteor is more jammable compared to the PL-15, given its lack of AESA, but when you compare the probable effective range on the Meteor (variable thrust ramjet) vs the probable effective range on the PL-15 (dual-pulse rocket), it begins to resemble a toss-up.
coolieno99
Junior Member
Rafale may use 11G manuveres to evade incoming BVRAAMs, while the J-20 would use its stealth characteristcs to accomplish the same. The stealth aircraft doesn't have to use special violent 11G turns to evade incoming BVRAAM. The radar in the BVRAAM is tiny and relatively weak(battery powered). BVRAAM have difficulty to lock onto non-stealth jets . For a BVRAAM to hit a stealth aircraft, the pilot should start praying to Shiva.
This is 1 of 2 reasons why stealth is so desirable. First is to avoid initial detection . Second if detected, the stealth will help prevent or break radar lock.
Indians were promoting anti-Chinese propaganda since 2016 atleast.
Now they get it bad and beg US to let them stay.
coolieno99
Junior Member
The unemployment rate in India is high and getting worse. The call centers in india are being move to the Philippines because filipinos can speak English in American accent. It's easier for American customers to understand when filipinos speaking on the phone than indians.
Brumby
Major
I think we have reached the point of diminishing returns with the G turn conversation. Except for your own view I don't think anybody else is convinced with your proposition and we should just move on.
IMO there are several key unknowns but critical in the conversation between the Rafale vs J-20 that would impact any outcome. On paper, the J-20 would have the advantage simply because of lower RCS. That said, any detection conversation needs to include counter measures to prevent detection. In other words it is a holistic conversation and not some compartmentalized one. We know Spectra is very capable but is it capable of halving the detection range with its ECM suite is not something we will know. LPI emission is difficult but not impossible to detect and to geolocate if you have the right system capabilities such as digital channelized receivers built with interferometry measurements.
A tactic I would adopt is to operate as if in a RF denied environment and wait for the J-20 to emit. Spectra would then deny a lock on as long as possible while its ESM cue its FSO to narrow the search box for the J-20. Rafale has some form of sensor fusion with composite track build from RF, passive ESM signals and IR. Given enough time and distance closing, the Rafale can passively locate and target the J-20 without it knowing that a missile is on its way. Additionally since the targeting is passive in nature, it denies the J-20 an opportunity to jam until the Meteor goes active during terminal phase. Obviously all these are highly subject to many variables, conditions and specific capabilities.
There's yet another factor to consider. Simple geometry dictates that any IAF aircraft over the Valley are going to be pinged by transmissions from across 270 degrees. Indian airspace in the Valley is surrounded on 3 sides by hostile territory. If the PLAAF and PAF coordinate their AWACS and ESM/ECM coverage, the IAF is going to have serious problems, even without any J-20s in theater (which I doubt will be present, as they really aren't needed.)
Brumby
Major
@Mohsin77
Totally agree with you that China has no reason to deploy their J-20s to the Western sector and neither is the Rafale ready for combat deployment with the IAF. It is a feel good news item targeted at the general Indian public.
IMO, any contest for the skies over LAC will be between SU-30 MKI and J-11s. The PAF's role and any provision of air bases will be an interesting development - should it happen.
Totally agree with you that China has no reason to deploy their J-20s to the Western sector and neither is the Rafale ready for combat deployment with the IAF. It is a feel good news item targeted at the general Indian public.
IMO, any contest for the skies over LAC will be between SU-30 MKI and J-11s. The PAF's role and any provision of air bases will be an interesting development - should it happen.
About the only chance the Rafale pilot would have is from overwhelming numbers or if the J-20 pilot makes huge mistakes.
Idk how many Rafale India will buy but if its 10x more than there are J-20 then they would be a serious threat. IRST as proven by Chinese and American exercises with 4/4.5 gen vs 5 gen doesn't solve everything, even if they can get close enough, the 5th gen aircraft could also avoid missiles or jam them. At that range, the 4.5gen aircraft is much more vulnerable as well, having marginally worse maneuverability, EW suite and much larger RCS.
In theory if a J-20 pilot let's himself be rushed by half a dozen IRST planes then they could be taken down. But there seems to be no reason for PLAAF to ever commit J-20s in such a way.
Idk how many Rafale India will buy but if its 10x more than there are J-20 then they would be a serious threat. IRST as proven by Chinese and American exercises with 4/4.5 gen vs 5 gen doesn't solve everything, even if they can get close enough, the 5th gen aircraft could also avoid missiles or jam them. At that range, the 4.5gen aircraft is much more vulnerable as well, having marginally worse maneuverability, EW suite and much larger RCS.
In theory if a J-20 pilot let's himself be rushed by half a dozen IRST planes then they could be taken down. But there seems to be no reason for PLAAF to ever commit J-20s in such a way.
Problem is, for the InAF, the J-11s have superior missile load-outs to the Su-30 MKIs, with both the PL-10s and PL-15s superior to the loadout on the Su-30 MKIs. The InAF could eventually import current or next-gen Russian AAMs that negate this advantage, but that'd take time.
I continue to think J-20 deployment to the Sino-Indian frontier is necessary, for the simple reason that the Chinese only have their qualitative advantage to protect them against Rafales. While the J-20 has strong advantages (stealth, jamming, better AEW&C support) over Rafales, when you convert it to J-11Bs vs Rafale, the advantage disappears. The Rafales are more maneuverable than the J-11Bs, the Rafales have more sophisticated, and likely par radar compared to the J-11Bs, and the Meteor vs PL-15 fight is a toss-up.
Yes, of course, the majority of the battle will be between Su-30s and J-11s, simply because both sides will have so many of them. But the decisive factor will be the J-20 vs the Rafale because J-11s vs Rafale isn't in the Chinese'' favor, and once the Rafales are taken down, either via anti-air base missile or J-20, the J-11s are now free to slaughter the Su-30MKIs.
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