Ladakh Flash Point

Mohsin77 said:

India definitely has a lot more friends... on `facebook.`

In real life though, it's kind of a different story.

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Umm, more accurately it should be India sends a lot of friend requests and acts like they are best buds even when the other side rejects their friend request, just look at the pathetic display towards Israel and the utter disgust and distain Israelis (both official and ordinary) with which their affections were met with.

rhino123 said:

After years of brain washing and believes that the Chinese are aggressors who have taken their land, these people will gladly give up their lives to 'defend' what remains of their land, even if it means their land in India control.

Such is the same case as many other people around the world... Even the Taiwanese and Singaporean. And that is the success of the western media and their own media that spew poisons every single day.

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North Koreans have been indoctrinated at their birth to hate the South Koreans, but that didn't stop them from defecting to South Korea when the tough got going.

rhino123 said:

After years of brain washing and believes that the Chinese are aggressors who have taken their land, these people will gladly give up their lives to 'defend' what remains of their land, even if it means their land in India control.

Such is the same case as many other people around the world... Even the Taiwanese and Singaporean. And that is the success of the western media and their own media that spew poisons every single day.

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Bravo, well said!

Xsizor said:

That's deeply sad.
Sad that they never said so all these years. Not a single article (Indian or otherwise) ever specified it.

For the ease of discussion we shall go with the region between PP17A and PP19 as Gogra ( since it has Gogra Posts).

And, for the Changlung Kungrong , we may proceed with the CK region. Issue solved.

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PPs 17 - 17a are near the CK confluence. 17a is Gogra post. PPs 18-20 are near Kongka LA, an entirely different region. Look on google maps, there is an Indian road from hot springs post(marked on Gogra) towards those points near Kongka La. No reputable Indian media or government source has reported problems there.

BTW Shukla incorrectly marked Hot Springs as Gogra. H wasn't the only person to do that, but if he is a retired soldier with so much knowledge of the area, he should know better. His drawing is also vague, and doesn't even include the Changlung, which is important since CK region is the only area where PLA has a camp within India's perception. He also is claiming that India has a different perception of the LAC than China in the entire Hot Springs Sector, which contradicts Lt. Gen. Panag's accounts. The only area where India and China have differing perceptions is the CK region, which is the current standoff point(the problem area, as you refer).. Abhijit Iyer clearly showed this in his map of the LAC, which is corroborated by Detresfa, Nathan Ruser, and the US Office of the Geographer. Detresfa has already shown that China's kongka La post is well outside India's perception, though it does have smaller camps and roads closer to the LAC. If you disagree, please show any reputable Indian media source or government statement that specifically mentions any point past 17a, or even better, some satellite evidence.

As for the PPs, I have already shown them


Pp16
PP 15
pp17A is Gogra, at CK (The problem area)

The remaining pps are along the Kongka La bulge. No issues have been reported there., so I don't know why you are so obsessed with them.

twineedle said:

PPs 17 - 17a are near the CK confluence. 17a is Gogra post. PPs 18-20 are near Kongka LA, an entirely different region. Look on google maps, there is an Indian road from hot springs post(marked on Gogra) towards those points near Kongka La. No reputable Indian media or government source has reported problems there.

BTW Shukla incorrectly marked Hot Springs as Gogra. H wasn't the only person to do that, but if he is a retired soldier with so much knowledge of the area, he should know better. His drawing is also vague, and doesn't even include the Changlung, which is important since CK region is the only area where PLA has a camp within India's perception. He also is claiming that India has a different perception of the LAC than China in the entire Hot Springs Sector, which contradicts Lt. Gen. Panag's accounts. The only area where India and China have differing perceptions is the CK region, which is the current standoff point(the problem area, as you refer).. Abhijit Iyer clearly showed this in his map of the LAC, which is corroborated by Detresfa, Nathan Ruser, and the US Office of the Geographer. Detresfa has already shown that China's kongka La post is well outside India's perception, though it does have smaller camps and roads closer to the LAC. If you disagree, please show any reputable Indian media source or government statement that specifically mentions any point past 17a, or even better, some satellite evidence.

As for the PPs, I have already shown them


Pp16

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PP 15

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pp17A is Gogra, at CK (The problem area)

The remaining pps are along the Kongka La bulge. No issues have been reported there., so I don't know why you are so obsessed with them.

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Wont be entertaining any Google map tagging no more. Multiple times have I suggested to create a map. Apparently that's too much for you.


As for the rest of your question -

You acknowledge CK point is a problem zone but also indeed a sole problem zone. I see no issues here and perfectly aligns with what I have inferred ( that for Hot Springs region - between PP15 and PP17A - it's the sole problem region).

The final few points you raise are actually question to yourself ( if you are interested about them). The Indian government has never acknowledged ( as far as I know), existence of Patrol points. As per my understanding, PP are entirely a matter of Patrol Force ( I have little idea about their functioning or dynamics but you can contribute by supplying any maps that Indian Border Patrol force uses).

Then the core part of a question you raised has been raised by me several months ago - Where does PP19, PP20, PP21 etc lie? But then again, I don't think it's of interest to you or your interests.

You merely asked that question back to me. All I understand is that you've got no information about anything past PP17A ( Gogra Post) - good to know.

Since this (Ajai Shukla's map) is the only source for all the patrol points beyond PP17 A and since there has been no mentions of such patrol points (or an altered one) by Government sources, it shall be atleast given its due weightage. It's the most logical thing to do.

There is indeed a way for the Ajai Shukla maps to be proved junk - give a different representation that either accommodates the Patrol points in a different location OR explains away the patrol points anomaly. Silence / ambiguity from official sources isn't helping India here.

Xsizor said:

Wont be entertaining any Google map tagging no more. Multiple times have I suggested to create a map. Apparently that's too much for you.


As for the rest of your question -

You acknowledge CK point is a problem zone but also indeed a sole problem zone. I see no issues here and perfectly aligns with what I have inferred ( that for Hot Springs region - between PP15 and PP17A - it's the sole problem region).

The final few points you raise are actually question to yourself ( if you are interested about them). The Indian government has never acknowledged ( as far as I know), existence of Patrol points. As per my understanding, PP are entirely a matter of Patrol Force ( I have little idea about their functioning or dynamics but you can contribute by supplying any maps that Indian Border Patrol force uses).

Then the core part of a question you raised has been raised by me several months ago - Where does PP19, PP20, PP21 etc lie? But then again, I don't think it's of interest to you or your interests.

You merely asked that question back to me. All I understand is that you've got no information about anything past PP17A ( Gogra Post) - good to know.

Since this (Ajai Shukla's map) is the only source for all the patrol points beyond PP17 A and since there has been no mentions of such patrol points (or an altered one) by Government sources, it shall be atleast given its due weightage. It's the most logical thing to do.

There is indeed a way for the Ajai Shukla maps to be proved junk - give a different representation that either accommodates the Patrol points in a different location OR explains away the patrol points anomaly. Silence / ambiguity from official sources isn't helping India here.


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Forget official sources, provide any reputable media source that mentions those points. And while I do not know the EXACT location of those points you mention, i do know that they are all in the Kongka LA bulge northeast of Hot Springs Post. There is even a road extending there from Hot Springs. Then again, apparently google Earth isn't good enough for you despite it being mostly up to date and showing a good layout of the area.

Anyway, since no reputable media source(The Print, NDTV, Hindustan Times, etc.) or government statement mentions them, and becasue Detresfa's images clearly show know PLA presence within the LAC of India(which Lt. Gen. Panag has confirmed lines up with what is shown on google) there is no reason any problem exists there. If you have any other sources you are welcome to post them.

twineedle said:

becasue Detresfa's images clearly show know PLA presence within the LAC of India

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Something we all can agree on.

twineedle said:

Forget official sources, provide any reputable media source that mentions those points. And while I do not know the EXACT location of those points you mention, i do know that they are all in the Kongka LA bulge northeast of Hot Springs Post. There is even a road extending there from Hot Springs.

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You are asking me for sources that talk about patrol points. While I asked you for sources that clarify about the points. I have a source - the original - Ajai Shukla. The sole reason you are talking about PP (19 to 23) is this retired soldier who you allege to be against the ruling government.

But more importantly -

You say, you do know they are all in Kongka La. ( how do you know?)
But when I ask you to create a map showing all these points ( PP18 through PP23), you play ghost.

twineedle said:

Then again, apparently google Earth isn't good enough for you despite it being mostly up to date and showing a good layout of the area.

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Google earth isn't good enough because one can't tag multiple locations.

Are you being purposely oblivious to the message here? You hesitate to create a map because either you don't know where these patrol points lie within the Konka La ( which you insist you know because it means no Indian LAC has been violated) or you are too lazy to do that.

Xsizor said:

Something we all can agree on.


You are asking me for sources that talk about patrol points. While I asked you for sources that clarify about the points. I have a source - the original - Ajai Shukla. The sole reason you are talking about PP (19 to 23) is this retired soldier who you allege to be against the ruling government.

But more importantly -

You say, you do know they are all in Kongka La. ( how do you know?)
But when I ask you to create a map showing all these points ( PP18 through PP23), you play ghost.

Google earth isn't good enough because one can't tag multiple locations.

Are you being purposely oblivious to the message here? You hesitate to create a map because either you don't know where these patrol points lie within the Konka La ( which you insist you know because it means no Indian LAC has been violated) or you are too lazy to do that.

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Good so we do agree on something. Forgive tje typo, it was late when I replied to you last night.

Every available map of the la c shows the laC running through kongka la. There is also a clearly visible road extending from Hot Springs towards the Kongka La bulge
Even Lt. Gen. HS Panag has himself said that the LAC runs through Kpngka La and that there are no differing perceptions.

I am only mentioning those points because you insist on saying there is a problem there when no reputable gov. or media source has confirmed that. I am simply asking for sources corroborating Shukla's claims.

jfy1155 said:

https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1400287110481907716

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Why are they carrying wooden sticks?