Ladakh Flash Point

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Kakyan

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This article proves what I was saying on Depsang plains since August, that is no change has happened in Depsang during the last year's standoff and it is an old issue from 2013 when Modi was not PM.
No fresh incursion in Depsang in 2020.

Blows away the claims of those saying India lost 900 sq km last in Depsang when infact that area was inaccessible since 2013 when Modi was not in power.

The situation at the Depsang Plains pre-dates the standoff. Indian forces, the source said, have not been able to access their traditional patrolling limits since 2013.

The Depsang Plains issue, the source said, was added to the military commander talks “later”.

“Nothing happened in Depsang during this entire crisis. In Depsang, they (the Chinese) have been coming across and blocking our patrols at a number of these patrol points.” Chinese troops, the source said, “come every day in their (Dongfeng) Humvees, and just block that passage”.

“We have to be clear, we are not on solid footing as far as the alignment (of the LAC) is concerned” in Depsang. Indian troops, the source said, are being blocked in Depsang “since before 2013 as well and after that”.

“Before 2013 too, We were not able to reach many of our Limits of Patrolling… we used to go and access some of the patrolling points… there were selective patrolling points till where we had tracks”. But after 2013, China “built tracks, they had better connectivity, so they were blocking our movement everytime”.

“Depsang has been added to the friction areas so that it gets resolved. As of April 2020, the status quo has not changed in Depsang. It is an old issue, but we added that. Initially, it was not even being discussed. Around the fourth-fifth round (of talks), we thought let’s get this resolved as well. We felt Depsang could be the next flashpoint. That was our assessment. Why not get that resolved as well,” the source said.

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Xizor

Captain
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I sometimes cannot fathom how gigantic the vast territory of China is.... like this area is basically Middle East/Subcontinent, and barren uninhabitable frozen land.... it's crazy that China is so huge and territorial vast. Takes a lot of effort to monitor all this frontier land, kudos to PLA for their hard work and sacrifice.
Actually, many areas are porous (like in South Tibet) part where the border is vague and is impossible to guard due to the terrain and forests.

China also had a huge pressure relieved after having the border settled with USSR/Russia. The same with South East Asian Countries of Myanmar, Combodia etc.
This article proves what I was saying on Depsang plains since August, that is no change has happened in Depsang during the last year's standoff and it is an old issue from 2013 when Modi was not PM.
No fresh incursion in Depsang in 2020.

Blows away the claims of those saying India lost 900 sq km last in Depsang when infact that area was inaccessible since 2013 when Modi was not in power.



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Who all claims/claimed so? Anyway, they are claiming rightly. It's not their fault that they didn't realize India's borders are a domestic political issue rather than national issue.

Whether lost in 2013 or later, a loss is a loss. Isn't it the promise of the current right wing government of India to get them back? What's stopping them from doing so? Isn't China supposed to be weak as per the narrative across the border?
 

twineedle

Junior Member
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This article proves what I was saying on Depsang plains since August, that is no change has happened in Depsang during the last year's standoff and it is an old issue from 2013 when Modi was not PM.
No fresh incursion in Depsang in 2020.

Blows away the claims of those saying India lost 900 sq km last in Depsang when infact that area was inaccessible since 2013 when Modi was not in power.



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China's claims in Depsang are also up to Burtse, about 10 km west ofthe LAC. Previously they would also patrol there and in 2013, they temporarily occupied the area right next to Burtse camp. If India lost patrolling access to areas east of the lac,China also lost access to land.
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plawolf

Lieutenant General
All this mind numbingly petty and irrelevant Indian hair splitting really exemplifies why they cannot attain great power status - all they can do is focus on the sesame sized areas where they have not completely lost and claim them as evidence of some grand victory, all the while ignoring the watermelon sized actual concessions they gave - all achieved without the PLA having to fire a single shot in anger (officially at least).

This all kicked off due to Indian strategic miscalculations and wishful thinking in believing western and their own media lies about China being completely destroyed by Covid and just hiding the evidence.

The Indians decided to probe to see if that was the case, with the aim of pushing hard to seize as much land as they can get away with while China was weak and vulnerable if so.

China’s rapid and overwhelming response, especially surging troops from Wuhan itself, completely dispelled all possible Indian delusions, and they were all set to make a hasty withdrawal until they lost control of their own troops and that idiot colonel decided he really needed to win the Darwin Award.

What followed was an nothing sort of pure punishment for the Indian military forces deployed on the front as China forced India to stay engaged as PLA troops lived in luxury in heated and oxygen enriched barracks while Indian Jawas tried not to freeze or suffocate to death in tents while using millennia old stove tech that India is spinning as some sort of cutting edge innovation. That’s the sort of suffering PLA troops only needed to endure on rotation to forward OPs while that was basically the standard across the entire Indian front.

Indian armchair generals might be all fire and fury, but if they had their way and an actual war broke out, the PLA would have found the Indian troops facing them even more of a pushover than usual as the suffering they barely survived all winter would have not done their fighting spirits or capabilities any favours. That is on top of China’s technical and firepower dominance.

India and China should have been natural allies or at least friendly neighbours, since the natural boundary of the Himalayas means there they would have to literally go out of their way to step on each other’s toes. Yet that is precisely what successive Indian governments have done.

The only reason India and China have a boarder dispute is because of Indian arrogance in demanding to use a line some British irrelevant arbitrarily drew on a map before India had even become a state. China offered to hold talks and would have made generous concessions, but the Indians wanted to behave like they were the British empire at its prime and flat out refused to negotiate and instead tried to enforce their claim with military force, thereby breaking the most fundamental of Chinese taboos making war the only possible outcome.

In the decades since, India had plenty of time to forget its spanking and make a fresh start, but their arrogance turned to avarice, denial and downright delusion as rather than embrace meaningful reforms to try to actually compete with China, they just got more bitter and started harbouring fantasies about destroying China since even their most zealous fantasists started to accepted in their hearts of hearts that they can never hope to match China in fair competition.

That is why the are keeping the boarder dispute with China open and active despite all sense and reason. They want their claimed territories as a springboard to launch further invasions of Tibet, Xinjiang and beyond. It is sheer folly of the most ridiculous and dangerous kind.

India has been supremely lucky in that geography and strategic priorities have meant China has had little appetite to repay them the kind of hostility they have been showing to China.

However Chinese patience is not infinite, technically advancement is rapidly eroding the barriers and constraints that geography can impose on Chinese forces, and Chinese long term strategic interests are now bringing them into areas where geography no longer play such a major part.

Chinese military philosophy have always tended to go to extremes, in that China will go to unusual lengths of avoid war, but if pushed to war, it tend to respond with disproportionate force, to either teach generational lessons to the foe, or to end them forever as threats.

Do not mistake Chinese patience and restraint for forgiveness, all of India’s transgressions are being tallied up with interest also accrued.

If India does push China into open war, it might just get the nation ending war it wants, only it won’t be the nation they want that ends up erased from history. Modern India is a very recent and artificial construct with many glaring racial and regional fault lines that would be child’s play to exploit and shatter and balkanise India into a dozen or more endlessly warring states, as India have been for the vast majority of its history.

Sure, in general no one wants chaos and never ending wars on its boarders, but the same geography that holds Chinese forces back now will also limit any fallout from such from reaching China. And as annoying as having a bunch of little countries endlessly fighting and slaughtering each other on your boarder would be, it’s infinitely better than having them United in hatred of you and eternally waiting for you to show any weakness and/or suffer some unforeseeable and unpreventable natural calamity so they can invade and slaughter you to take all your possessions for themselves.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
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These are some of the forward camps India set up along the lac to house troops.
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All this mind numbingly petty and irrelevant Indian hair splitting really exemplifies why they cannot attain great power status - all they can do is focus on the sesame sized areas where they have not completely lost and claim them as evidence of some grand victory, all the while ignoring the watermelon sized actual concessions they gave - all achieved without the PLA having to fire a single shot in anger (officially at least).
Could you please elaborate? With a few minor exceptions, both sides have disengaged from the major conflict areas and have restored status quo ante exactly like how India had requested in border talks, despite China's attempts to shift the lac west. The fact is China hasn't gained anything and India hasn't lost any territory it controlled before the standoff began. There is ample satellite evidence to show that which has still not been disproven. And this standoff wasn't even about relatively small areas of land, but Chinese objections to strategic Indian infrastructure projects which India has now completed.
 
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Xizor

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For the case in Depsang,
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As the map above indicates, Indian soldiers have effectively been blocked from going up to the traditional ‘limit of patrol’ line near the Line of Actual Control because of the presence of Chinese troops at a key point in Depsang 18 kilometres inside the LAC known as Bottleneck/Y-Junction.

The LAC of India is far inside and ever beyond the now inaccessible Patrol points 10,11,12,13.
The CLAIM of China is supposedly between The Bottleneck / Y junction and the Burtse.
 

twineedle

Junior Member
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By now it should be clear both sides have differing perceptions(the official terminology) of the lac. Depsang has one of the biggest differences, the Indian and Chinese perceptions are about 30 km apart.

So in summary, the Chinese perception of the LAC is about 1.5 km from Burtse
The Indian perception is beyond the bottleneck
In the past, both sides regularly patrolled up to their claim lines, and when their armies met, they would wave banners ate each other. However, In the period between 1993 and 2013, China improved infrastructure along the lac while India mostly ignored the area, so China gained a major tactical advantage. There weren't any border standoffs, but that was because China could dominate India without actually crossing the LAC. That changed around 2013, when India finally began new infrastructure projects there(most of which were completed recently). So in 2013, China occupied up to its claim line, ant eventually withdrew to the bottleneck, where it reached in 1962. So now both sides are blocking each other from reaching their perceptions.

For reference, here is the CIA map of the area in 2004, which shows the de facto lac(where China reached in 1962, and not Indian or Chinese perceptions.
 

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Xizor

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These are some of the forward camps India set up along the lac to house troops.
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Could you please elaborate? With a few minor exceptions, both sides have disengaged from the major conflict areas and have restored status quo ante exactly like how India had requested in border talks, despite China's attempts to shift the lac west. The fact is China hasn't gained anything and India hasn't lost any territory it controlled before the standoff began. There is ample satellite evidence to show that which has still not been disproven. And this standoff wasn't even about relatively small areas of land, but Chinese objections to strategic Indian infrastructure projects which India has now completed.

Then the India should drop any further disengagement talks.

The standoff, which started in Galwan, was about India pushing into the bend and into territory China perceived as its own. China has highlighted merely how this was preceded by Infrastructure construction. But then, a clash in a region far away from those construction areas ( inside Indian controlled regions) only says what is obvious.
 

Xizor

Captain
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By now it should be clear both sides have differing perceptions(the official terminology) of the lac. Depsang has one of the biggest differences, the Indian and Chinese perceptions are about 30 km apart.
Indeed and LAC as a working concept has disintegrated in Depsang ( for the time being).
As China is just a couple of odd kilometers away from its Claim line and India is 20 some km away from even its LAC. What use is the concept anymore?
 
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