Korea 2013... War Game or political game changer?

delft

Brigadier
The vision of another man from Chicago:
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SPEAKING FREELY

What China wants from North Korea
By Joel Gibbons

Speaking Freely is an Asia Times Online feature that allows guest writers to have their say. Please click here if you are interested in contributing.

The world seems to thrive on conflict, at least on conflict that has passed through the Hollywood spin machine, but some conflicts are really real, to borrow a phrase from Plato. He coined that locution in recounting the thoughts of his teacher, Socrates, who tried in vain to convince the Athenian people that there really is a Real world out there, independent of and indifferent to the synthetic world invented by the Sophists for their own purposes. Plus ca change, plus ca meme chose, as they say.

These ruminations come knocking naturally when the subject is conflict on the Korean peninsula. What can we make of it? Some aspects of the story are amenable to logic. Thus viewing from afar, some facts become visible.

First, North Korea - not in any way to disparage its hard-working leadership - is not a leader in these events, any more than the South is a leader.

This figures to be solely a contest between their sponsors, China and America. We can safely ignore the overblown rhetoric from Pyongyang, because Beijing is in charge. And more importantly, Beijing is pursuing its strategic interests. The North is understandably eager to serve China's leadership. So then the first question becomes what does China want?

Second truth. That is easy to see. China wants to push America away from its coast. The first objective has been to force Taiwan to accede to China and its navy, which is already the situation on the ground for all practical purposes. Taiwan is now within China's defense perimeter.

The Kuomintang regime continues to float kites of independence, but there isn't any power behind them because, to put it bluntly, China has the wherewithal to simply crush Taiwan at any time.

For Taiwan to side America in opposition to China might well play well in Washington and with American public opinion, but on the ground in Taipei it would be suicidal. America cannot in fact defend Taiwan, if by defense we mean prevent any harm from befalling her. Now what does this say about South Korea.

Third truth. South Korea is in almost exactly the same situation as Taiwan: too far from America and too close to China. In the event of war, only one fact is certain, and that is that the South would be devastated. Again, America can defend itself but cannot defend the South.

In the case of Korea moreover, there is another element: Japan. Koreans are not likely to view a Japanese invasion of a devastated Korea as "defense" of any kind. Thus the only rational option for the South is to distance itself from America. The message of the Kims to the South is that closeness to America is hazardous to your health. Since that is in fact true, we would have to expect the leaders of South Korea to respond accordingly.

Fourth. Whether China has any further agenda for Korea is far from clear. It seems to be quite sensible for China to recognize the very considerable value in the South, and to utilize it by making friendship with China highly advantageous. The North might be displeased, but they are powerless.

In the end, China will almost surely succeed in removing American influence from its shores. In the past, by keeping forward bases in Taiwan and South Korea, America has been able to pin down the Chinese navy and effectively divide it into two "half-navies": a northern fleet and a southern fleet. If China can gain control of its waters, they will have a true strategic fleet.

This part of the analysis has been easy. Its embellishment is not. The result of a new strategic presence for China is disturbing, and especially so to the next layer of neighbors: Japan, the Philippines, and Vietnam. But it is not problematic.

Speaking Freely is an Asia Times Online feature that allows guest writers to have their say. Please click here if you are interested in contributing. Articles submitted for this section allow our readers to express their opinions and do not necessarily meet the same editorial standards of Asia Times Online's regular contributors.

Joel Clarke Gibbons is an economist and mathematician, located in America. His book on world affairs and international law is The Empire Strikes a Match in a World Full of Oil (2nd edition, Xlibris Press, 2011).

(Copyright 2013 Joel Clarke Gibbons)

In this crisis come together the attempt by the US to maintain their bases in South Korea even after 2015 when that state nominally becomes independent and China trying to convince the South Koreans that those bases are expensive liabilities.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
The vision of another man from Chicago:
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In this crisis come together the attempt by the US to maintain their bases in South Korea even after 2015 when that state nominally becomes independent and China trying to convince the South Koreans that those bases are expensive liabilities.

I don't know what he has been smoking, but I want some.

Few, if any of the 'truths' he mentions are true or real in any way shape or form, thus the conclusions based on them are also highly suspect.

The borrowed quote from Plato also has little to do with anything else he has to say, and just looks like a transparent and ill executed attempt to show off his learning to attempt to add some credibility to his words.

But by using such a poor fitting and unrelated quote, all it really does is highlight the limits of his learning, since he clearly isn't nearly as well read and educated as he would have others believe or else he would have found a better quote to use.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
North Korea did not fire a missile then did it?

Well maybe it was because 2 USN Arleigh Burkes were sitting off the East Coast

Korean AEGIS DDG were stationed there also, but according to Warship magazine the Koreans were tasked to only, detect and track the missiles, the task of shooting them down was lead by the American Arleigh Burkes using thier ABM shield and SM-3 missiles

A formidable ship, can shot down anything that flys even close to near space, I really hope the Royal Navy takes up the American offer of upgrading the Type 45 with ABM and Tomahawks, on this occasion we see the value, it deterred the North Korean from launching a missile, that in itself is a good enough investment

Btw SM-3 is $20 million a pop!!
 

MwRYum

Major
North Korea did not fire a missile then did it?

Well maybe it was because 2 USN Arleigh Burkes were sitting off the East Coast

Korean AEGIS DDG were stationed there also, but according to Warship magazine the Koreans were tasked to only, detect and track the missiles, the task of shooting them down was lead by the American Arleigh Burkes using thier ABM shield and SM-3 missiles

A formidable ship, can shot down anything that flys even close to near space, I really hope the Royal Navy takes up the American offer of upgrading the Type 45 with ABM and Tomahawks, on this occasion we see the value, it deterred the North Korean from launching a missile, that in itself is a good enough investment

Btw SM-3 is $20 million a pop!!

On the side that N.Korea doing all the chest-pounding, now there's one more card to play: a Korean-American who is just sentenced to gulag and the US made some high-profile call to get that "idiot" (consider the circumstance that led to him got caught) back...y'know, Jimmy Carter make a visit to Pyongyang and do the "Hanoi Jane" thing, something like that...and have that idiot shoved into his return luggage as souvenirs, like last time.
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
North Korea did not fire a missile then did it?

Well maybe it was because 2 USN Arleigh Burkes were sitting off the East Coast

Korean AEGIS DDG were stationed there also, but according to Warship magazine the Koreans were tasked to only, detect and track the missiles, the task of shooting them down was lead by the American Arleigh Burkes using thier ABM shield and SM-3 missiles

A formidable ship, can shot down anything that flys even close to near space, I really hope the Royal Navy takes up the American offer of upgrading the Type 45 with ABM and Tomahawks, on this occasion we see the value, it deterred the North Korean from launching a missile, that in itself is a good enough investment

Btw SM-3 is $20 million a pop!!

So who is the RN desperate to protect Britain from ballistic missile attack from? Adding ABM would be a needless extravagance for the British and there are plenty of things the UK could spend £20m on other than on a single missile it will only ever use on America's behalf.

With the Type 45s having so few VLS cells for its weight, it also cannot really afford to waste cells carrying SM3 that it will never need unless they go fighting America's battles for them.

If America wants ABM on the Type 45s for when they go on another overseas military adventure and wants the UK to play loyal war dog to add a veneer of international coalition to their unilateral adventurism, the yanks can bloody well play for the upgrade and missiles. That is the least they can do tbh, and it is pathetic how shitty a deal past British PMs have managed to make for all of Britain's loyal friendship to the US.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
Wolf you Do have to admit that if China Was not backing them the North Korean government would not be in existence. OF course if North Korea Were a Puppet of Beijing I think They would be a lot more stable.
North Korea is the Tail that has Wagged the Dog. Kim Senior, Manipulated both Russian and China into Supporting his aim of unification until the conflict turned against them and China found it's self Threatened. It was then That Mao Put his foot down. That established the Status Quo.
I think even to day North Korea has worked hard to paint themselves as a buffer state in order to keep the Chinese wagged and supporting the North Korean state. The buffer state that stops the US from putting a base on the Chinese boarder, Even though If the US did put a Ground base their the PLA could Over run it before the US could react.
In order to keep the life support going and allowing the continuation of the Kim Reign the Kim's grandfather, father and now grandson have worked hard to keep the tensions high. It's in their interest to keep the Wall high and armed. They need spies on every street corner to keep their spies on every corner and maintain the balance of terror that keeps the Army loyal and the people in line. They need China looking to feed them oil, money, the occasional arms and food.
The rent paid to China is the ability to use the Tensions when China wants bargaining chips.
Peace is not in the Kim plan forced Reunification is. They know the only way to try and win reunification is with Support, And China is their supporter. But they have to know that The Chinese Will not act unless The US attacks first. So they have aimed to try and get the US to pull the Trigger. Feeling that if they push the right button King Kim will be crowned in Seoul.
China in there dislike of the thought of American power on their boarder allows the North to engage in activities that keep the North breathing for another day.
that is my opinion feel free to shoot it full of holes.

Now As For ABM. Fact is in this new Century, Deterrence is no longer assurance unto it's self. Non state actors have access to conventional ballistic missiles of growing complexity. If the brits did deploy ABM it would before their interest the continued survival of Britain and it's Carrier's
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
Wolf you Do have to admit that if China Was not backing them the North Korean government would not be in existence.

I don't think a Somalia like lawless wasteland full of armed groups would be any improvement over the current situation.

I think even to day North Korea has worked hard to paint themselves as a buffer state in order to keep the Chinese wagged and supporting the North Korean state. The buffer state that stops the US from putting a base on the Chinese boarder

From how I read it, NK is less acting as a buffer and more like a suicide bomber, threatening to take everyone else with them if they don't get what they want. If NK was trying to play buffer, they would not be causing anywhere as much trouble and mischief.

The rent paid to China is the ability to use the Tensions when China wants bargaining chips.

I cannot think of a single example where this might have happened. If anything, the timing of NK's tension raising has often come at inconvenient times for China. NK is less doing China's bidding and more blackmailing everyone saying feed us or else we will make trouble.

Peace is not in the Kim plan forced Reunification is.

NK dreams of reunification as much as Taiwan dreams of taking over the mainland. The balance of power is so absurdly one-sided that reunification under the North is simply a laughable suggestion. The only position NK has on reunification with the South is firm opposition because reunification is the same as subjugation by the South.

They know the only way to try and win reunification is with Support, And China is their supporter. But they have to know that The Chinese Will not act unless The US attacks first. So they have aimed to try and get the US to pull the Trigger. Feeling that if they push the right button King Kim will be crowned in Seoul.

That is pretty damned far fetched and improbable.

NK is not looking to start a war, if there is a war, the only certain outcome is the Kims loose. If South Korea and America win, the Kims all hang. If China is forced to step in again because NK started the war. Even if the war ends in stalemate or, by some minor miracle Korea is reunited under the North. There is simply no way in hell China would allow those madmen to run the new unified Korea, and it just happens there would be hundreds of thousands of Chinese troops all over NK, so it would be a pretty straight forward matter to seize control. The Kims will probably all hang as well, and China installs a real puppet and makes the new Korea a vassal.

Either way, war would be the end of the Kim line, and they know it.

NK has mastered the art of acting just the right kind of crazy whereby no one can be sure if they are actually seriously going to make good on their mad threats or if its all hot air, but no one wants to call their bluff just in case they are indeed that batshit crazy.

The goal of the tensions are two fold.

Firstly, I think the young Kim needed to act tough abroad to cement his position and prove himself to the old guard generals. Since NK's continued exisitence is pretty much dependent on them being able to extort good, fuel and other essentials from the outside world, chubby Kim needed to prove that he can also intimidate the world powers like his old man and be NK's main breadwinner.

Secondly, through the recent tensions, NK has been able to pretty much take back every promise and concession it has made in the past on nuclear control. It has restarted enrichment at a previously shut down reactor, and will probably conduct more nuclear tests in the future.

Had NK just gone and done that without any build up, America would not have had any of it, and would have imposed sanctions or even consider military options.

By bringing the Peninsula to the bring of war, not only has NK succeed in making this big story about nuclear weapons a side show, it has also effectively neutered America's options to respond. If tensions have been normal, America would have acted to express its displeasure, like sanctions or even an air strike. But, with the two Koreas a hair trigger from war, America was understandably hesitant to do anything that might tip the two over the edge, so NK has pretty much gotten away with it with few repercussions.

Now that NK has archived those two objectives, it is letting things simmer down again.

Now As For ABM. Fact is in this new Century, Deterrence is no longer assurance unto it's self. Non state actors have access to conventional ballistic missiles of growing complexity. If the brits did deploy ABM it would before their interest the continued survival of Britain and it's Carrier's

The only ballistic missiles non state actors have ever got their hands on are early scuds with very limited range and poor accuracy. Those missiles and their launchers are hardly inconspicuous, and they would need to be moved to within a few hundred miles of the UK to be used. Please point on a map for me where any non-state actors could possible hope to get a scud missile and TEL to, to fire a ballistic missile at the UK?

If non state actors are to mount a WMD attack on the UK, it will not be done so using a great big ballistic missile, but rather a suitcase nuke, dirty bomb or gas grenades or viles of weaponised micro-organisms. Against those threats, ABM offers no protection, and the billions it would cost to integrate ABM onto the Type 45s would be far better spent on homeland security to counter the kinds of plausible threats I just mentioned.
 

asif iqbal

Lieutenant General
So who is the RN desperate to protect Britain from ballistic missile attack from? Adding ABM would be a needless extravagance for the British and there are plenty of things the UK could spend £20m on other than on a single missile it will only ever use on America's behalf.

With the Type 45s having so few VLS cells for its weight, it also cannot really afford to waste cells carrying SM3 that it will never need unless they go fighting America's battles for them.

If America wants ABM on the Type 45s for when they go on another overseas military adventure and wants the UK to play loyal war dog to add a veneer of international coalition to their unilateral adventurism, the yanks can bloody well play for the upgrade and missiles. That is the least they can do tbh, and it is pathetic how shitty a deal past British PMs have managed to make for all of Britain's loyal friendship to the US.

In my opinion yes there is much more than ABM that Type 45 needs, first and foremost it needs Tomahawks

But having ABM would be a good addition, like you said no one will be attacking UK with a ballistic missile but it is a deterrence, a re balancing act, a counter weight and would reduce the likely hood of a conflict, who would it be directed too? Russia and Iran

Russia will add more than 100 warships to its navy in the coming decades and they have restarted thier long range missile programmes, sending up a Type 45 into the arctic would send a message Russia should not try to think UK is exhausted and try anything silly, like planting flags on sea beds

Everything UK does is with the rise of Russia in the back of the mind, this frees up US to do "Pacific pivot" to keep peace in Pacific, so when we say things like Type 45 should have ABM you must first look at the bigger picture, what does it mean for UK, what threats is UK facing and where does it stand in the Europe and wider world

As a example, in early 1970s UK sent a aircraft to Belize to deter Guatemala attack, it was a deterrence and avoided a larger confrontation

Infact you can say whole reason Falklands came to war was because UK had stepped down its military and was in the process of massive cuts to the navy and selling off its aircraft carrier to the Aussies, the military junta thought yeah great let's make a move now and did not expect UK reaction, certainly not a task force within 48 hours, times magazine said it best, the Empire did strike back!
 

plawolf

Lieutenant General
In my opinion yes there is much more than ABM that Type 45 needs, first and foremost it needs Tomahawks

But having ABM would be a good addition, like you said no one will be attacking UK with a ballistic missile but it is a deterrence, a re balancing act, a counter weight and would reduce the likely hood of a conflict, who would it be directed too? Russia and Iran

Russia will add more than 100 warships to its navy in the coming decades and they have restarted thier long range missile programmes, sending up a Type 45 into the arctic would send a message Russia should not try to think UK is exhausted and try anything silly, like planting flags on sea beds

Everything UK does is with the rise of Russia in the back of the mind, this frees up US to do "Pacific pivot" to keep peace in Pacific, so when we say things like Type 45 should have ABM you must first look at the bigger picture, what does it mean for UK, what threats is UK facing and where does it stand in the Europe and wider world

As a example, in early 1970s UK sent a aircraft to Belize to deter Guatemala attack, it was a deterrence and avoided a larger confrontation

Infact you can say whole reason Falklands came to war was because UK had stepped down its military and was in the process of massive cuts to the navy and selling off its aircraft carrier to the Aussies, the military junta thought yeah great let's make a move now and did not expect UK reaction, certainly not a task force within 48 hours, times magazine said it best, the Empire did strike back!

Oh come, to deter Russia? Not even the US has a hope in hell of stopping a Russian nuclear attack with ABM never mind Britain. The UK's counter to Russia's ballistic missile force is still the same as it has always been - the UK's own nuclear arsenal.

Without a nuclear second strike capability, no amount of SM3s will save the UK from a Russian nuclear attack, and adding SM3s does nothing to change the UK's ability to survive a Russian nuclear strike. If the UK had SM3s, it would just mean Russia needs to lob a few more missiles if they were being cheap and using intermediate ranged ballistic missiles. If the Russians decided to use some of their ICBMs, SM3s would not even make much of an impact as they are designed and rated against short to intermediate ranged missiles only.

As for Iran, well, why would Iran want to nuke the UK? And why would a UK nuclear second strike not be enough to deter them like everyone else?

ABM is only really relevant if you want to break the M.A.D balance and be able to nuke a small or medium seized nuclear power with little risk of retaliation. If the UK wants ABM because of Iran, it is not because the UK is afraid the Iranians might launch against the UK but rather because the UK wants to launch against Iran.

ABM is at best a dangerous destabilising element and at worst a poison chalice. It is a massive resource drain, and not something a middle table power like the UK should waste its time and resources with.

The British Empire is dead and buried. Its way past time the UK accepted the reality of its new position in the world and stop all the pretence and awkward fight for relevance at the world diplomatic top table, because the only people to fall for it are a very select group of conservatives hawks and empire nostalgics in Westminster and Fleet Street.

The Cold War is also long over, and there is no need for the UK to keep acting like a war dog for its masters in Washington against the Russian bear. Russia has nothing against the UK, and if the UK would stop sticking its nose in Russia's business on behalf of the US, there would be absolutely no reason for the Russians to even think about nuking the UK.

The most gulling thing is that even a war dog gets fed by its master, the UK doesnt even get a discount when they buy stuff from the US. If the US wants the UK to keep doing its bidding, at the very least it should foot the bill for the UK's military expenditure when they are out fighting for the US.
 

TerraN_EmpirE

Tyrant King
North Korea missiles moved away from launch site: U.S. officials
5:41pm EDT
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - North Korea has taken two Musudan missiles off launch-ready status and moved them from their position on the country's east coast, U.S. officials told Reuters on Monday, after weeks of concern that Pyongyang was poised for a test-launch.
The United States did not believe the missiles were moved to an alternate launch site and were instead in a non-operational location, one of the U.S. officials said. The official did not elaborate.
(Reporting by Phil Stewart; Editing by Sandra Maler)
seems Kim blinked
 
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