KJ-600 carrierborne AEWC thread

[Deino]

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If China had acquired a Yak-44 airframe or some extensive material on it then I would consider that to be a sensible argument for China potentially adopting it in some form, like a modified domestic variant.

But as it is, we do not have any evidence for the Chinese aerospace industry having any extensive access to Yak-44 or E-2 or any other similar aircraft, so the only logical conclusion we can come to is that it makes sense for China to adopt an existing aircraft they have experience with (like Y-7) as the basis of a new AEW&C, or a clean sheet design, or a mixture of both. However, that does not mean China will not take cues from established and proven principles that E-2 or Yak-44 have demonstrated in the past.

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The very notion of bringing in E-2 or Yak-44 into this discussion about the fixed wing AEW&C is a bit silly to begin with. Beyond the chinese navy carrier AEW&C having the same configuration as them (which I think everyone should've expected anyway), I don't see how any formal design connection to those aircraft is logical.

Even if I agree with You in principle, we all know how close the cooperation between Yakowlew and several Chinese companies and design teams was and is: The Yak-130 & JL-10/L-15 and the Yak-152 & CJ-7/L-7 for example.

So it is not completely impossible that there were contacts too....

 

[Blitzo]

Even if I agree with You in principle, we all know how close the cooperation between Yakowlew and several Chinese companies and design teams was and is: The Yak-130 & JL-10/L-15 and the Yak-152 & CJ-7/L-7 for example.

So it is not completely impossible that there were contacts too....

if we had evidence of cooperation between Yakoylev and AVIC or some relevant Chinese corporation then that would obviously change things.

But without that, any talk of connections with Yak-44 are immaterial.



If people are trying to suggest that there may be Yakoylev involvement in this project for whatever reason, then that is another discussion entirely.

 

[Deino]

if we had evidence of cooperation between Yakoylev and AVIC or some relevant Chinese corporation then that would obviously change things.

But without that, any talk of connections with Yak-44 are immaterial.



If people are trying to suggest that there may be Yakoylev involvement in this project for whatever reason, then that is another discussion entirely.

Agreed, however IMO the mentioned examples are evidence that there is a cooperation between Yakovlev and AVIC even if it does not prove the Yak-44-story.

As such I think we simply should wait ...

 

[Blitzo]

Agreed, however IMO the mentioned examples are evidence that there is a cooperation between Yakovlev and AVIC even if it does not prove the Yak-44-story.

As such I think we simply should wait ...

Err.

The fact that there has been cooperation between AVIC and Yakovlev in the past is a matter of well known public record.

However, if anyone wants to suggest that any particular new project from AVIC (like a carrier based AEW&C) may be connected to Yakovlev, then we need to have something to suggest that -- such as evidence or even rumours of cooperation, or at least something in the new project suggesting there has been cooperation such as if the new carrier based AEW&C shares specific design features with say the Yak-44.

But right now we don't have anything of that kind to suggest it -- all we have, based on this mock up and based on the old JZY-01 structural demonstrator is that we know the new aircraft shares a similar configuration to the E-2 airframe (and thus by extension, a degree of similarity to the Yak-44 as well). And common sense would also dictate that such a proven configuration would be a sensible choice for the Navy to go with for their carrier AEW&C meaning the configuration as such isn't exactly "exclusive" to any one specific company.



In other words, yes technically speaking there is nothing to "disprove" that there is not a connection to Yakovlev of this carrier AEW&C project -- but it is more important to recognize that there is no reason to speculate that there is any connection to Yakovlev or any other company to begin with at this stage.

 

[Deino]

Agreed and I hope You did not get me wrong; I was far from hinting anything in this regard; however I only mentioned that there were connections between AVIC & Yakovlev and as such it is - even if far from proved or even likely - surely more probable than these stupid BS-claims about the J-20 using a +210 kN WS-15 already You sometimes can read.

 

[Blitzo]

Agreed and I hope You did not get me wrong; I was far from hinting anything in this regard; however I only mentioned that there were connections between AVIC & Yakovlev and as such it is - even if far from proved or even likely - surely more probable than these stupid BS-claims about the J-20 using a +210 kN WS-15 already You sometimes can read.

Sure, I'm just saying that at this stage even mentioning in Yakovlev is jumping the gun and unnecessary due to lack of evidence, rumours or logic to support it.

 

[SamuraiBlue]

Not practical for realistic use.

The bigger problem I see with his post is whether he even knows about Chinese catapult development, or if he thinks China is developing a fixed wing AEW&C without the ability to reliably launch them or something.

Yes I am aware PRC is doing research in catapult development BUT I believe it is still in an early stage since the last time I saw the research center they were still considering both steam and EMALS solution meaning they still have not perfected either concept and do not have an advanced working design they can concentrate their resources on.
Once they have obtained a working concept they will need to miniaturize and optimize the design to fit into a operational envelop within the confines of the ship power system.

Basically if you do not know how much power the system can exert then designing a plane that would be utilizing the system especially ones that will be close to the upper limit would be just a waste of time.
You'll need to wait until you have defined the design power out limit will be before design any plane.

 

[Blitzo]

Yes I am aware PRC is doing research in catapult development BUT I believe it is still in an early stage since the last time I saw the research center they were still considering both steam and EMALS solution meaning they still have not perfected either concept and do not have an advanced working design they can concentrate their resources on.
Once they have obtained a working concept they will need to miniaturize and optimize the design to fit into a operational envelop within the confines of the ship power system.

Basically if you do not know how much power the system can exert then designing a plane that would be utilizing the system especially ones that will be close to the upper limit would be just a waste of time.
You'll need to wait until you have defined the design power out limit will be before design any plane.

You clearly haven't been following the discussion of the catapult system very closely over the years.

What you described would make sense if it were for a different navy, but from the information that we've gathered over the years, the steam and EM catapults that are being decided between are likely mature systems that have already gone through iterative prototypes at different sites.


In fact, as early as a year and a half ago the consensus was that 002 would be using steam catapult, but then they decided to make a competition between the steam and EM catapult because the EM catapult was at a higher level of maturity than the navy originally assessed.
In other words, the catapults that we see at huangdicun are almost definitely not prototypes or demonstrators, but probably closer to production representative models. The purpose of their competition at huangdicun is not to see which one demonstrates principles better, but probably which mature product is more mature. Things like maintenance, mean time between failure, etc will likely be the things that are being assessed. Once a model is decided, they will likely promptly put that model into production and install it into 002 which by that stage would be under a later stage of construction and likely designed deliberately to accommodate either steam or EM cat with minimal need for modification in the later stages of construction.


Concept demonstration, advanced development of the catapults, and initial testing etc would all have been done years in the past using dedicated test facilities with weighted test sleds. Huangdicun OTOH is an operational naval air training facility -- not the kind of place to test new, unproven concept systems.

 

[SamuraiBlue]

@Bltizo

I heard the story I just don't buy it.
Basically if they were that close they would have incorporated into the carrier they are constructing right now.
The benefit is far more bigger then disadvantage of have two different systems on different ships.
I believe they didn't install either system to the carrier is because neither are ready yet.

 

[Blitzo]

@Bltizo

I heard the story I just don't buy it.
Basically if they were that close they would have incorporated into the carrier they are constructing right now.

You mean 001A?
No, that would be far too risky. The catapults would need to reach a sufficient level of maturity before they would commit to it, and right now they're still deciding which one is more mature. In fact I think neither catapult was mature enough to be ready for construction of 001A, and it's been suggested that 001A was chosen by the Navy as a stop gap exactly because the catapults for 002 at the time (probably early 2010s) were still judged to be not mature enough for 002 construction to begin off the bat for when the navy wanted the carrier after Liaoning.

The benefit is far more bigger then disadvantage of have two different systems on different ships.
I believe they didn't install either system to the carrier is because neither are ready yet.

Well the competition was a surprise to all of us as well. But that is the only logical answer.

We have had significant rumours over the last year that construction of 002 has been delayed a little compared to original plans because of "competing schemes" which many have interpreted as competing catapult types.


In other words, what probably happened was that steam and EM cats were both in development for many years, maybe even a decade or more before now, and prior to 2013-2014 the plan was for the first 002 to be constructed with steam catapults because the Navy perceived steam catapults to be the more reliable one, but then by 2014 various political changes happened (including the anti corruption drive in the military), and among some of the shake up, it caused the Navy to reassess the viability of their catapult choice and by then they saw that both the steam and EM catapults were surprisingly similarly reliable.

But then how do they choose which one to put on the first 002? Obviously EM catapult is the future, but steam catapult was thought to be more proven with the drawback that it would only be fielded in limited number because it would likely be quickly superceded by EM cat on later carriers meaning you're stuck with an older system that still needs to be supported for the next few years/decades.
So then what happened was to have both teams put in their catapults for operational stress tests to see which one performed better, and that's what began in 2015 with construction that we saw at huangdicun and the two different catapults both finished last year with tests beginning. And that is also why last year we began to hear that 002 construction may be impacted by "competing schemes" because the original intention to equip the first 002 unit with steam catapults has changed, so they are likely doing some redesign and rework to allow it to fit both steam or EM cat depending on which one wins.