Jian's vs F-22/F-35??

Status
Not open for further replies.

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
You don't really know J-7 pilots at all. Pilots being chosen for J-10 and J-11 are being chosen because they are the youngest and thus have the longest career time ahead of them. Thus, it is best for the training investment. Also, they are the most malleable nuggets. It's got nothing to do if you're better or not---generally if you reach to this stage, you are already good. There is no shortage of recruits in the PLAAF, and there is a very strong Darwinian process working before you can even get to fly a plane, much less a fighter or any fighter.

Many of the J-7 and J-8II pilots are old. They may not be getting as much flight hours per year, but they are still more experienced, and they might still kick a young buck in a J-10 or J-11. When they get retired or move to the airline jobs, they won't get replaced on a one to one basis.

I don't think a J-7 datalink would cost as much as a Link 16 terminal. The Link16 does a lot more but a J-7 datalink does not need the same requirements. Other than plane to AWACS, plane to GCI and possibly peer to peer with Su-27s/Su-30s/J-8IIs.

J-7s are not likely to fly over the water for long range maritime missions. They won't meet F-18s unless F-18s would be flying over the mainland, and by then, would be evading SAMs.

When an airspace gets crowded because of dense numbers of both friendly and opposing aircraft fighting each other, chances of BVR fratricide gets pretty good. You will have to fight this one close up mano o mano. I have always felt in general that BVR is a bit overrated while WVR is greatly underrated. Let us not forget to mention, some fighter tactics don't use the radar at all in order not to alert the opponent. Your RWR and your datalink are your best friends. In that sense, a radar like the J-8II's won't be an advantage.

A J-8II is not necessarily that much faster than a late model J-7E or J-7G. The J-8II is a lot bigger and easier to eyeball than a J-7G. The J-8 will show up in the radar bigger and faster. BVR weapons are certainly not infallible and the J-7 will have the same close in weapons as the J-8II. Lower radar cross section, smaller size, superior agility makes the J-7 more survivable than a J-8II when a missile is fired upon.

China is already working on their own UCAVs too. A number of semi retired J-6s and J-7s might end up as drones. By the time UCAVs come into force 20 years from now in the US, the number of surviving J-7s are going to be pretty small, maybe less than a hundred to two hundred, and most probably assigned in the backwater, west or the interior of China. They are not going to face the best and the brunt of enemy fighters, but those who survived the first and second tier defenses. More likely than not, these J-7s would be intercepting UCAVs, cruise missiles or unmanned bombers. And who is to say that these J-7s might be unmanned themselves.
 
Last edited:

cabbageman

New Member
I never heard of any third grade J-7 pilots become frontline J-10/J-11/Su-30 pilots because of age.

Cheap datalinks are easy to jam, and does not provide situational awareness advantages. If your datalink is no better than voice command, then it's pretty useless. To use datalink for silent attacks, you need good datalink like Link-16 which aren't on J-7. Any datalink upgrades on J-7 could be made available to J-8, and the result will be better.

crobato said:
J-7s are not likely to fly over the water for long range maritime missions. They won't meet F-18s unless F-18s would be flying over the mainland, and by then, would be evading SAMs.

That's what I meant. Short range J-7s aren't going to fly long range missions, and USAF/ USN will only send stealth aircrafts for deep penetration. Therefore J-7s likely will not meet non-stealth fighters with air to surface weapons.

BVR fatricide could be reduced by good IFF and ROE. That's also AWACS mission. If your AWACS cannot even do that, then you are screwed anyway.

J-6 / J-7 drones aren't UCAV, those are cheap cruise missiles. If there are any conflicts within ten years, I'm sure US would push UCAV into real battle tests like Global Hawk in OEF and OIF. US already has the basic technology, the main problem has been the onboard mission planning.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
I never heard of any third grade J-7 pilots become frontline J-10/J-11/Su-30 pilots because of age.

Well here is a clue for you. It is J-7 regiments that are being converted to J-10 and J-11. Used to be they were using J-8 regiments but not lately. So where are the third grade J-7 pilots you are saying? If you think J-10 and J-11 regiments are being developed from nothing but picking out the best possible pilots from all regiments and formed into a brand new single group, you don't know enough of the PLAAF. J-10 and J-11 regiments are made from existing J-7 regiments. And yes, they prefer younger pilots because for the cost of training, he has a much longer career life potential than an older pilot. Sad to hear about the career prospects of older pilots if they have not ascended the rank ladder.

Cheap datalinks are easy to jam, and does not provide situational awareness advantages. If your datalink is no better than voice command, then it's pretty useless. To use datalink for silent attacks, you need good datalink like Link-16 which aren't on J-7. Any datalink upgrades on J-7 could be made available to J-8, and the result will be better.

So what is "cheap" datalink? Any cheap celphone can practice frequency agility that makes interception impossible. Datallink is essentially networking, it is not rocket science. Russians were the first to use datalinks incorporated with their GCI.

BVR fatricide could be reduced by good IFF and ROE. That's also AWACS mission. If your AWACS cannot even do that, then you are screwed anyway.

IFF does not stop stray missiles from relocking and finding new targets. ECM screws that up too. ROE tends to limit rather than further the envelope of engagements.

J-6 / J-7 drones aren't UCAV, those are cheap cruise missiles. If there are any conflicts within ten years, I'm sure US would push UCAV into real battle tests like Global Hawk in OEF and OIF. US already has the basic technology, the main problem has been the onboard mission planning.

So does China. Nothing special here.
 

cabbageman

New Member
Any J-7 pilots that moved up won’t be based only on age, but also performance. Unit pilots’ reassignments aren’t new. In the 90s, many divisions were disbanded or reorganized. From 1987 Aviation College graduation until he became space program candidate in 1998, Yang Liwei had been in several different PLAAF units. He was in Xian, XinJiang, Xian again, then Sichuan.

PLAAF pilots with better performance are given priority in conversion. Units consist of mostly third grade pilots would not go anywhere near top aircraft like Su-30MKK.

You could say datalink is a network, but there are cheap and expensive networks. Network theory isn’t rocket science, but different technology level and experience could have very different outcomes in security, data rate, terminal size, number of participants, and other critical performances. Datalink is like any other military products, you don’t get top performance without spending.

In BVR engagement, enemy will be at a longer distance. Any re-lock of ARH missile will likely to be another enemy aircraft near the original target, not your wingman. BVR fratricide is dangerous, but no more than WVR fratricide. It’s even easier for WVR IR missiles to lock on friendly aircrafts when there is a huge mixed dogfight. In WVR, both enemy and friendly aircrafts are close.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
J-7s should make for better drones than J-6s.

You shall not be dissapointed, typhuang

J-7-27_65092.jpg


a pilotless j-7, clear evidence the PLAAF wants better drones.
 

tphuang

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
VIP Professional
Registered Member
crobato said:
It is hard to say how good the Changhong version is, there is self advertisement is involved. Perhaps the OLS-31E is used as a stopgap prior to the Changhong version getting ready to be accepted into service or ramped up in production. Getting Russian engines and OLS is an indication China does not want to wait or waste time waiting for domestic equivalents and would accept some degree of Russian components during transition. Shows you they're in a rush. We'll see if there will be more Russian component orders later in the year as the ordered stock dries up.
yeah, I'm kind of surprised by the recent huge order of AL-31F. I'm wondering if it's an upgraded version of AL-31 for the existing flankers or for J-11Bs.

Also, at least it strongly suggests that J-10 has built-in IRST, which is good.
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
cabbageman said:
Any J-7 pilots that moved up won’t be based only on age, but also performance. Unit pilots’ reassignments aren’t new. In the 90s, many divisions were disbanded or reorganized. From 1987 Aviation College graduation until he became space program candidate in 1998, Yang Liwei had been in several different PLAAF units. He was in Xian, XinJiang, Xian again, then Sichuan.

If you reached a regiment that is flying at least a J-7E, you would already be pretty good.

Fact remains the last few J-11 and J-10 regiments are derived from J-7 ones. There is no disbanding or reorganization.

PLAAF pilots with better performance are given priority in conversion. Units consist of mostly third grade pilots would not go anywhere near top aircraft like Su-30MKK.

That's totally wrong. It goes against what has been observed and recorded.
The Su-30MKK from the 18th Division, the J-11/Su-27UBK regiment in the 33rd Division, the J-11 regiment in the 6th, 7th, and 14th Division, the J-10 regiments in the 44th Division and now in the 2nd and 3rd Divisions, are all formerly J-7 regiments.

You could say datalink is a network, but there are cheap and expensive networks. Network theory isn’t rocket science, but different technology level and experience could have very different outcomes in security, data rate, terminal size, number of participants, and other critical performances. Datalink is like any other military products, you don’t get top performance without spending.

Frankly I don't think military datalinks could come even as fast as a minute fraction of a commercial network.

In BVR engagement, enemy will be at a longer distance. Any re-lock of ARH missile will likely to be another enemy aircraft near the original target, not your wingman. BVR fratricide is dangerous, but no more than WVR fratricide. It’s even easier for WVR IR missiles to lock on friendly aircrafts when there is a huge mixed dogfight. In WVR, both enemy and friendly aircrafts are close.

If you have a furball, everyone will be mixed up. I don't think your wingman will be close to you. The thing is, if there is already a furball in a distance between friendly and boogie, are you going to fire BVR missiles into that furball and hope you hit the right targets?
 

crobato

Colonel
VIP Professional
tphuang said:
yeah, I'm kind of surprised by the recent huge order of AL-31F. I'm wondering if it's an upgraded version of AL-31 for the existing flankers or for J-11Bs.

Also, at least it strongly suggests that J-10 has built-in IRST, which is good.


By the way, Kanwa has a headline that there are new J-11s transferred to Lanzhou.
 

cabbageman

New Member
Unless you think all PLAAF pilots must be great, there is nothing to argue.

PLA still have regiment changes and merges. In 2004, 31st Division was merged into the 12th Division.

crobato said:
That's totally wrong. It goes against what has been observed and recorded. The Su-30MKK from the 18th Division, the J-11/Su-27UBK regiment in the 33rd Division, the J-11 regiment in the 6th, 7th, and 14th Division, the J-10 regiments in the 44th Division and now in the 2nd and 3rd Divisions, are all formerly J-7 regiments.

Who told you these former J-7 regiments have third grade pilots? Who told you no pilot or regiment changes in these divisions?

crobato said:
Frankly I don't think military datalinks could come even as fast as a minute fraction of a commercial network.

Military products have stronger survivability, repairability, availability, reliability and security requirements.

crobato said:
If you have a furball, everyone will be mixed up. I don't think your wingman will be close to you. The thing is, if there is already a furball in a distance between friendly and boogie, are you going to fire BVR missiles into that furball and hope you hit the right targets?

Longer reach means greater flexibility. When technology matures, people always choose the longer range weapons first. Your doubt is equivalent of saying no rifle could be used at a distance when your friend is in a close knife fight, therefore rifle is overrated and knife is better. It’s a correct description, but ultimately the wrong question to ask.
 

MIGleader

Banned Idiot
tphuang said:
yeah, I'm kind of surprised by the recent huge order of AL-31F. I'm wondering if it's an upgraded version of AL-31 for the existing flankers or for J-11Bs.

Also, at least it strongly suggests that J-10 has built-in IRST, which is good.

Can you point out the IRST on a picture? ive looked and looked, but dont seem to be able to find one. I remeber seeing on pic of a nose close up with irst, but it wasnt a real picture.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top