JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Indianfighter, I was saying that the internal fuel + maximum payload = 10000 to 11000 kg. So, that would mean about 7000 kg as maximum payload.

Also, I think the Chinese/Indian avionics are both catching up as shown in the recent photos of cockpits, but neither country has the capability to produce the single MFD like the one on F-35. Not really a shame, since Americans have been working on this for much longer. Now, is it possible that the current Chinese avionics/radar is as good as the current American ones? No. Is it possible that it's as good as America 15 to 20 years ago? possible.

To ajay, J-10's radar 1473 did beat out the Russian and Israeli ones due to performance. Also, the fact that KLJ radar for JF-17 fufilled the PAF standard when the much talked about Grifo did not is also an indication of the progress of Chinese fighter radars.

Anyhow, let's just get back to JF-17 and not India vs China.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

FreeAsia2000 said:

I think comparing JF-17 to the Mig19's and Mig-21's is going a bit far.

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How does " JF17 as a cheap replacement for mig19's and mig21's " imply
"comparing JF17b to the mig19's and mig21's " ...?? :rofl:

Can we keep this strictly on topic. There is no need to say how well X country has compared to Y in bringing a plane off the drawing board.

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the mods are still there to decide on whats off topic.. you have a problem with my post feel free to refer it..

The JF-17 must stand on it's own as a good fighter.

The key question is this, after 20 years the F-16 is still a good plane, how will
the JF-17 compare in 15 years time ?

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my only point is a JF17 today nowhere stands near todays F16.. leave aside talking about its condition in 15 years time.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

dude,
i am not trying to compare china and india in the same league.. the only point was that they are nowhere near where US is today.. since you want to pick up a statement of mine and dissect it to get a chance for thrashing LCA or indians . go ahead and write whatever you want..it only helps us understand you better..

SABRE said:

China probably but I dont think India military industry is any where near American industry of 1980s. In 1978-9 the induction of F-16s began and F-15 had already started it service. In the same scene its been over 20 years and LCA is still looking for various components i.e. Engine and LCA happens to be no where near F-16s (compared to old A/B Block 10 and 15 models it can be said it is better but if the Blk 10/15 A/B are MLUed..no way LCA is any where near it). In the case of MiG-29, well its Soviet/Russian not Indian and in the case of F-15, the Indians produce Su-30 but that is also Russian not Indian.

China however has rolled out J-7/F-7 (looks like MiG-21 but technicaly its not), J-8, Q/A-5 in the past and recently J-10, FC-1/JF-17, JH-7/FBC-1. Plus China has already put the J-XX and another aircraft at the task while Indian MCA is still a paper work which may be torn out if India signs cooperation on PAK-FA.

In other fields, Indians dont produce their own subs while China has inducted its own made nuke subs. Indian Arjun is still with the mechanic while China has rolled out T-90, T-98 and T-99 and working on other improvements.


I am not bashing Indian industry if thats the impression you are getting. I am just being rational. It will take India 10 to 15 more years to reach american military , specially aviation, of 1980s. By than China would be far ahead. Its rapid improvements in military industry has almost brought it at par with that of Russians and in 5 to 7 yrs they will cross the Russians and in 10 to 15 they would have good enough industry to produce quality equipement compared to Americans and Europeans. They may lack in quality even than but they will be on the top.

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Re: JF-17: New Pics

tphuang said:

To ajay, J-10's radar 1473 did beat out the Russian and Israeli ones due to performance. Also, the fact that KLJ radar for JF-17 fufilled the PAF standard when the much talked about Grifo did not is also an indication of the progress of Chinese fighter radars.

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and which russian radar and israeli radar were tried.. ?? .. and how does that translate into claims made here like " chineese avionics are comparable to american ones" or " JF17 is comparable to F16 blk 52.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Ajaybhutani, please read the rules. No double posting. And please back up your claims as to why the JF-17 can't be compared to the F-16.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Indianfighter said:

So JF-17 will carry 2 PL-9 missiles on the wing-tips and 4 SD-10s under the wings.

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Anyhow, let's just get back to JF-17 and not India vs China.
Lets get it straight.. every time a person replies to a statment you made need not imply that he is trying to prove your statement as false.. its quite a simple thing to consider before replying..

As I have mentioned earlier, they are optimum designs. They can be compared.

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lets just agree to disagree on this..

I said they are atleast equivalent, and not better. A few posts ago I posted an article that mentioned capabilities of directed jamming of missiles and optimum flare/chaff dispensing systems on the JF-17; the designers claimed that such systems are present only on the F-22 and JSF and not on conventional aircraft such as F-16s or any Indian aircraft.

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designers always claim that their stuff is the best in the world...

tphuang's hypothesis is performance, and so is mine. If cost would have been a criterion, then the tenders wouldnt have been called.

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tenders are called to bring in the ideal products i.e. a good cost to performance combination.. unless the chineese bring in the tenders how will they even evaluate the foreign products or know wether its really a value for money..

India did not call for tenders for the JSF (even though the air-force expressed a desire for it). A $1.6 trillion economy is unlikely to look at costs.

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chineese are still not so rich.. they are still not a developed economy..

Thus the KLJ radar for the JF-17 must be of good quality.

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the question is not good quality.. the question is how does it suport ur claims of JF17 being comparable to F16 blk52/42 wutever..
and do remember that the same KLJ in J10 will have to be reduced in size and thus performance before it goes into Jf17.

With Taiwan to capture and tensions with Japan, thier frontline aircraft i.e. J-10 must have optimum equipment.

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if they get afraid it wouldnt be a problem for them to get some F16 blk60/70 .. or even F22 for japaneese. so dont think about air superiority in the near future..

MiGLeader and myself have given an example. There is no reason to disregard the KJL radar.

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then give me figures stating that its comparable to the american radars..

AESA has not been offered on the MiG-35. The radar offered for it is the downgraded Bars-29 ( aversion of the MKI radar). Please do not post frivolous facts.

The AESA radar will be installed on the JF-17 (if a deal is made). It is being offered for JF-17 aircraft only and not for teaching purposes.

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its as frivolous as ur claims of JF17 getting an AESA.. you want me to believe that there exists a country which doesnt have an operational AESA yet but can integrate an aesa into JF17 when it comes out.. gimme a break..

2 Indian research establishments are in the project.

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they just joined .. and neways that for ur statement comparing third world countrie like paksitan, iran , etc.. they are surely not in the project.

I havent said the American products are bad. I said Indian and Chinese are equivalent. You havent given a reason as to your argument.

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show me the figures..

Offtopic :

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as i have said before developers always say that their product is the best.. let them at least finish LCA first before starting believeing in what all they say..

Re: JF-17: New Pics

Hello,

IMO the CAC JF-17/FC-1 is better comparred to the AIDC IDF.

The JF-17/FC-1 started as CAC-Grumman "Super-7" and was intended to be a light single-seat fighter replacement for MiG-21/J-7. Later, with Pakistan's involvement, the joint-project offered benefit of sharred R&D cost and transfer of technology and manufacturing know-how to Pakistan. The JF-17 has limited multi-role capability and may even serve as replacements for Pakistani AF's Mirage III & Mirage V's.

The AIDC IDF was intended to be a replacement for ROCAF's F-104 & F-5/F-5E, as well as counter to PLAAF J-8. It was a joint-development project between AIDC and General Dynamics, Hughes, & Westinghouse on various components. Taiwan's aerospace industry benefitted from the joint development, just as Pakistani aerospace industry will benefit from the JF-17 production.

If we were to compare the JF-17/FC-1 to F-16, I think the JF-17/FC-1 does well as a light fighter w/BVR AAM's, but comes up short in "multi-role" department. This can be addressed with later upgrades.

Someone had mentioned a comparison to F-16C/D block 50 earlier? The F-16A block 15 OCU offered AGM-119 Penguin mk3 anti-ship missiles, AGM-65 Maverick, AIM-120 AMRRAM, and a radar that could track 10 targets. F-16C block 30 adds AGM-45 Shrike & AGM-88 HARM capability.

The JF-17 does not appear to have anti-ship missiles, anti-radiation missiles, or even something similiar to the AGM-65 air to ground guided missile. The only advanced air to ground weapons on the JF-17 appears to be LGB's, though I have yet to see a JF-17 carrying them (besides models).

Some would argue that it's better to have dedicated air defense fighters with pilots trained for the purpose, instead of trying to make them jack-of-all-trades (and master of none). But my opinion is that having true multi-role aircraft gives the commander more flexibility. As is, when the JF-17/FC-1 (corrected ) enters service with Pakistani AF, I think it'd be inferior to the F-16 block 50/52 in air-to-ground capability.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

my only point is a JF17 today nowhere stands near todays F16.. leave aside talking about its condition in 15 years time.

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I read the "today" vs "today" as FC-1 PT4 vs F-16's latest model (F-16 E/F?), if so, I 100% agree with you. But if you check websites of SD or wiki, none has compared FC-1 to any latest model of F-16.

Some would argue that it's better to have dedicated air defense fighters with pilots trained for the purpose, instead of trying to make them jack-of-all-trades (and master of none). But my opinion is that having true multi-role aircraft gives the commander more flexibility. As is, when the FC-17 enters service with Pakistani AF, I think it'd be inferior to the F-16 block 50/52 in air-to-ground capability.

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FC-17? Hey, what is this plane? you produce it? Be careful of your spelling my boy, it could result joking! :nana:

Re: JF-17: New Pics

A $1.6 trillion economy is unlikely to look at costs.

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China's GDP is at $2.23 trillion actually.

even if they are ready to give it . think about the cost of it.. the radar will cost more than the rest of the JF17 and taht too without ToT.

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Well, it is highly possible that multiple variants are developed. The baseline variant may be an aircraft with some standard radar, while certain advanced variants serving the more elite air regiments may be equipped with the AESA radars.

Re: JF-17: New Pics

ajaybhutani, I believe that you are out of touch with recent news events.

a] The SELEX AESA radar is being offered to PAF JF-17. It was widely reported on Pakistani fora with relevant news reports. A Pakistani delegation is in the UK to negotiate UK avionics and SELEX AESA radar.

b] The Force magazine from India and other foreign news reports stated that the Selex AESA radar is being offered to Eurofighter,T-50, L** and JF-17.

c] The KLJ radar beat the best Israeli Elta and Russian Zhemchung radars offered. It is known they were the best offered from defence websites such as Globalsecurity, sinodefence and many sites related to combat aircraft, besides Chinese news agencies. I hope that you also know that the KLJ radar of the J-10 is an ESA radar and not the Pulse-doppler radar in the Block 52 F-16.

d] Specifications of radars are seldom made public by their manufacturers.

You may refer to the post #7 on the following link to PDF, in which the avionics of the JF-17 have been translated into English.

ajaybhutani said:

as i have said before developers always say that their product is the best.. let them at least finish LCA first before starting believeing in what all they say..

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I'll take Dr. Saraswat's word for that rather than your opinion.