JF-17 Thunder / FC-1 News, Discussion & Media
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Re: JF-17: New Pics
Dear friends,
JF17 is there to replace the older A5, f7 p (pg) and lots of Mirages. It will face either LCA (if possible), mig29 (OVT), Mirage 2000H, Mig21 Bison/Bis, Jaguar international, MKI... I don't see any block60 f16's flying operational on the other side. With Block52, j10 and Erieye I doubt it will not deliver enough punch. And conventional war wit nukes as treshold are dangerous certainly if we add Babur cruisemissiles.
I don't see why Chinese electronics will be inferior to those that are on the Indian site. And if Russian electronics were that good then why did MKI get non Russian? Do add to that that IAF has still lots of Bisons if Russian avionics. The ordered Mig29M will have Russian avionics. And if Russian weapons were so nice then why is China going beyond that? Or why is India not starting up any Indian a2a weapon? If we hear about Russian seekers on chinese missiles then Brahmos is the evidence that Indians are going beyond only seeker. I think the world is mixing up the fact that Chinese have improved faster then others. We do not have to wait for Indians to comment cause they did not expect Pakistan to react within a week when India exploded nukes. We do not have to remember that India did not want to include cruisemissiles in an agreement but within 10 days Pakistan launched cruisemisseles which will be nuclear tipped and launched from land, air and see... So how well can Indians predict Chinese developments? I take their opinion with lots of salt. I don't say that China is producing aircrafts like F22 but I don;t think they are that bad. We are talking about F16 comparable plane and they did it cheaper faster and the skipped a few MLU versions. If we compare LCA with Mirage 2000H then I can clearly say that old Mirages still wins with 2 hands down.
See it simple. JF17 has a very intresting leap forward. It has many handy items included. It is all digital cockpit. It will have nice links. It will have BVR, IFR and enough agile to get most of the opponents. Still it will be cheapest to produce and easiest to get maintained. One can jump beyond imagination like LCA. The cockpit was filled with lights and bulps and lots of Nintendo consoles. It had composites from all over the world. Indeed a very good US engine and probably nicer radar if India continues. But.... What costs...? And how much is the product Indian? Will get export customers? If we compare LCA with JF17 then we can skip the first for being overrated and not even welcome in IAF. Only plane sofar intresting there is MI but in an arena with enough radars and accurate and agile weapons one must go to smaller RCS and not more range...
It reminds me of the last funny thing about LCA. They had tro paint it grey cause it looks good. They had to remove fuelpumps fot the latest prototype cause they had not enough in stock (import). That is indeed the miscalulation. We should remember the old days on Keymag forum where Indian members called JF17 paper plane. The reality is that paper evolved into intresting plane while the super last gen aircraft called LCA ended in paper.
Do remember that FC1-04 is still evolving. It will get still lots of parts. We will see IFR and IRST. It will have HMS. It will be compatible to lots of western and eastern weapons. It would be ideally the MRCA for IAF if they would think about it. 125 F18e/f or block70 F16 will cost surely more. If they ever will be bought cause it took decades to buy Hawk. And that is an outdated advanced trainer if I look at what we can buy these days. Just compare it with T50. Smile.
Kind regards,
Munir.
Dear friends,
JF17 is there to replace the older A5, f7 p (pg) and lots of Mirages. It will face either LCA (if possible), mig29 (OVT), Mirage 2000H, Mig21 Bison/Bis, Jaguar international, MKI... I don't see any block60 f16's flying operational on the other side. With Block52, j10 and Erieye I doubt it will not deliver enough punch. And conventional war wit nukes as treshold are dangerous certainly if we add Babur cruisemissiles.
I don't see why Chinese electronics will be inferior to those that are on the Indian site. And if Russian electronics were that good then why did MKI get non Russian? Do add to that that IAF has still lots of Bisons if Russian avionics. The ordered Mig29M will have Russian avionics. And if Russian weapons were so nice then why is China going beyond that? Or why is India not starting up any Indian a2a weapon? If we hear about Russian seekers on chinese missiles then Brahmos is the evidence that Indians are going beyond only seeker. I think the world is mixing up the fact that Chinese have improved faster then others. We do not have to wait for Indians to comment cause they did not expect Pakistan to react within a week when India exploded nukes. We do not have to remember that India did not want to include cruisemissiles in an agreement but within 10 days Pakistan launched cruisemisseles which will be nuclear tipped and launched from land, air and see... So how well can Indians predict Chinese developments? I take their opinion with lots of salt. I don't say that China is producing aircrafts like F22 but I don;t think they are that bad. We are talking about F16 comparable plane and they did it cheaper faster and the skipped a few MLU versions. If we compare LCA with Mirage 2000H then I can clearly say that old Mirages still wins with 2 hands down.
See it simple. JF17 has a very intresting leap forward. It has many handy items included. It is all digital cockpit. It will have nice links. It will have BVR, IFR and enough agile to get most of the opponents. Still it will be cheapest to produce and easiest to get maintained. One can jump beyond imagination like LCA. The cockpit was filled with lights and bulps and lots of Nintendo consoles. It had composites from all over the world. Indeed a very good US engine and probably nicer radar if India continues. But.... What costs...? And how much is the product Indian? Will get export customers? If we compare LCA with JF17 then we can skip the first for being overrated and not even welcome in IAF. Only plane sofar intresting there is MI but in an arena with enough radars and accurate and agile weapons one must go to smaller RCS and not more range...
It reminds me of the last funny thing about LCA. They had tro paint it grey cause it looks good. They had to remove fuelpumps fot the latest prototype cause they had not enough in stock (import). That is indeed the miscalulation. We should remember the old days on Keymag forum where Indian members called JF17 paper plane. The reality is that paper evolved into intresting plane while the super last gen aircraft called LCA ended in paper.
Do remember that FC1-04 is still evolving. It will get still lots of parts. We will see IFR and IRST. It will have HMS. It will be compatible to lots of western and eastern weapons. It would be ideally the MRCA for IAF if they would think about it. 125 F18e/f or block70 F16 will cost surely more. If they ever will be bought cause it took decades to buy Hawk. And that is an outdated advanced trainer if I look at what we can buy these days. Just compare it with T50. Smile.
Kind regards,
Munir.
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Re: JF-17: New Pics
Ok, NO LCA IN CHINESE MILITARY SECTION, NO LCA IN JF-17 THREADS! If you guys want to meassure your penises whit LCA vs. JF-17 thread, I suggest you try some place more of Pakistandefenceforum level than brake our rules!!!
How hard it is to simply take 10 minutes out of your lives and read the forum rules and annouchments shown top of every sub-forum!!! This thread has allready closed once due flaming, I dont wanna do it all over again
Ok, NO LCA IN CHINESE MILITARY SECTION, NO LCA IN JF-17 THREADS! If you guys want to meassure your penises whit LCA vs. JF-17 thread, I suggest you try some place more of Pakistandefenceforum level than brake our rules!!!
How hard it is to simply take 10 minutes out of your lives and read the forum rules and annouchments shown top of every sub-forum!!! This thread has allready closed once due flaming, I dont wanna do it all over again
Re: JF-17: New Pics
simply becouse every bloody time someone mentions Indian's in chinese7pakistan topic, things get out of hand. Every single thread about the matter have ended up in the trash can so we have decided to forbid those two topics in same threads. Again, read the annouchements to learn more!
simply becouse every bloody time someone mentions Indian's in chinese7pakistan topic, things get out of hand. Every single thread about the matter have ended up in the trash can so we have decided to forbid those two topics in same threads. Again, read the annouchements to learn more!
ajaybhutani
New Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics
for instance SU30 wingtips can only carry a R73 and not a R77/27..
select need not imply better performance.. we need to consider factors like availability.. cost..localization etc..
if you cannot give a reason as why is the chineese radar better than american ones stop comparing them..
none of them have a single AESA radar flying on a fighter jet.. start dreaming about it when the radar is actually put in a plane..
2. the best is american today.. and you still havent given me a single comparison as to why is the american product bad ..
while the americans have deployed AESA's for years in their jets and are bringing up newer versions of AESA's rest of the world is still trying to fit in an AESA into their planes.. and the same for stealth..
chineese and indians are where americans were in 80's ..
reread my reply again.. wingtips cannot carry all types of AAM's.Indianfighter said:
for instance SU30 wingtips can only carry a R73 and not a R77/27..
but the fact remains that they are two different planes.... they have different designs and designers. different materials used in their airframes etc.. which clearly affects the capabilites what i want to see is J10 figures and not the figures because F16 has it ..
can you give me more details of composite structure of J10 and why do you think its gonna have same specs as F16..
then at least stop calling chineese avionics better than american ones.. its too much to expect for ..
are u sure the reason is performance and not cost.. Was russia offering Zhuk or kopyo.. as the two are quite different in capabilities.. which ones were israeli's offering.. ??
the whole reason for that radar in J10 might be cost and promotion of local industries as they dont need all planes to carry top notch radars..( considering they have 200+ sukhois)..
select need not imply better performance.. we need to consider factors like availability.. cost..localization etc..
if you cannot give a reason as why is the chineese radar better than american ones stop comparing them..
its same way AESA has been offered in Mig35..
none of them have a single AESA radar flying on a fighter jet.. start dreaming about it when the radar is actually put in a plane..
and cost of the equipment and its maintenance..i repeat again " does it make any sense to put a radar of the cost equal to cost of the rest of JF17 itself..?? "
source??
and countries like USA and soviet union have moved on to controlling nuclear fusion.... they are still way ahead..
2. the best is american today.. and you still havent given me a single comparison as to why is the american product bad ..
take it like this while americans have already built a F22 and deployed it russians are still in initial stages of the program..
while the americans have deployed AESA's for years in their jets and are bringing up newer versions of AESA's rest of the world is still trying to fit in an AESA into their planes.. and the same for stealth..
chineese and indians are where americans were in 80's ..
MIGleader
Banned Idiot
Re: JF-17: New Pics
The israeli's offered the Elta EL/M-2035 radar. Russians offered zhuk-10PD. apprently, neither was up to the challenge. ajaybhutani, russian products are nto typically very expensive. And for a high priority project such as the j-10, the PLAAF does not want to cut costs. The project has a lot of funding, and the PLAAF will opt for the most capable equipment to use. besides, the chinese military normally values indigenous designs over foreign ones.
The same cannot be said for jf-17...
The israeli's offered the Elta EL/M-2035 radar. Russians offered zhuk-10PD. apprently, neither was up to the challenge. ajaybhutani, russian products are nto typically very expensive. And for a high priority project such as the j-10, the PLAAF does not want to cut costs. The project has a lot of funding, and the PLAAF will opt for the most capable equipment to use. besides, the chinese military normally values indigenous designs over foreign ones.
The same cannot be said for jf-17...
Re: JF-17: New Pics
China probably but I dont think India military industry is any where near American industry of 1980s. In 1978-9 the induction of F-16s began and F-15 had already started it service. In the same scene its been over 20 years and LCA is still looking for various components i.e. Engine and LCA happens to be no where near F-16s (compared to old A/B Block 10 and 15 models it can be said it is better but if the Blk 10/15 A/B are MLUed..no way LCA is any where near it). In the case of MiG-29, well its Soviet/Russian not Indian and in the case of F-15, the Indians produce Su-30 but that is also Russian not Indian.
China however has rolled out J-7/F-7 (looks like MiG-21 but technicaly its not), J-8, Q/A-5 in the past and recently J-10, FC-1/JF-17, JH-7/FBC-1. Plus China has already put the J-XX and another aircraft at the task while Indian MCA is still a paper work which may be torn out if India signs cooperation on PAK-FA.
In other fields, Indians dont produce their own subs while China has inducted its own made nuke subs. Indian Arjun is still with the mechanic while China has rolled out T-90, T-98 and T-99 and working on other improvements.
I am not bashing Indian industry if thats the impression you are getting. I am just being rational. It will take India 10 to 15 more years to reach american military , specially aviation, of 1980s. By than China would be far ahead. Its rapid improvements in military industry has almost brought it at par with that of Russians and in 5 to 7 yrs they will cross the Russians and in 10 to 15 they would have good enough industry to produce quality equipement compared to Americans and Europeans. They may lack in quality even than but they will be on the top.
ajaybhutani said:
China probably but I dont think India military industry is any where near American industry of 1980s. In 1978-9 the induction of F-16s began and F-15 had already started it service. In the same scene its been over 20 years and LCA is still looking for various components i.e. Engine and LCA happens to be no where near F-16s (compared to old A/B Block 10 and 15 models it can be said it is better but if the Blk 10/15 A/B are MLUed..no way LCA is any where near it). In the case of MiG-29, well its Soviet/Russian not Indian and in the case of F-15, the Indians produce Su-30 but that is also Russian not Indian.
China however has rolled out J-7/F-7 (looks like MiG-21 but technicaly its not), J-8, Q/A-5 in the past and recently J-10, FC-1/JF-17, JH-7/FBC-1. Plus China has already put the J-XX and another aircraft at the task while Indian MCA is still a paper work which may be torn out if India signs cooperation on PAK-FA.
In other fields, Indians dont produce their own subs while China has inducted its own made nuke subs. Indian Arjun is still with the mechanic while China has rolled out T-90, T-98 and T-99 and working on other improvements.
I am not bashing Indian industry if thats the impression you are getting. I am just being rational. It will take India 10 to 15 more years to reach american military , specially aviation, of 1980s. By than China would be far ahead. Its rapid improvements in military industry has almost brought it at par with that of Russians and in 5 to 7 yrs they will cross the Russians and in 10 to 15 they would have good enough industry to produce quality equipement compared to Americans and Europeans. They may lack in quality even than but they will be on the top.
Indianfighter
Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics
Thus the KLJ radar for the JF-17 must be of good quality.
Offtopic :
P.S.> At the expense of sounding rude, I must say that Mr. Munir and Sabre must have the courtesy to not criticize the L** here. They are in the wrong forum (Chinese Mil Aviation) and the wrong thread (JF-17 : New pics) to criticize an Indian aircraft.
So JF-17 will carry 2 PL-9 missiles on the wing-tips and 4 SD-10s under the wings.ajaybhutani said:
As I have mentioned earlier, they are optimum designs. They can be compared.
I said they are atleast equivalent, and not better. A few posts ago I posted an article that mentioned capabilities of directed jamming of missiles and optimum flare/chaff dispensing systems on the JF-17; the designers claimed that such systems are present only on the F-22 and JSF and not on conventional aircraft such as F-16s or any Indian aircraft.
tphuang's hypothesis is performance, and so is mine. If cost would have been a criterion, then the tenders wouldnt have been called. India did not call for tenders for the JSF (even though the air-force expressed a desire for it). A $1.6 trillion economy is unlikely to look at costs.
Thus the KLJ radar for the JF-17 must be of good quality.
With Taiwan to capture and tensions with Japan, thier frontline aircraft i.e. J-10 must have optimum equipment.
MiGLeader and myself have given an example. There is no reason to disregard the KJL radar.
AESA has not been offered on the MiG-35. The radar offered for it is the downgraded Bars-29 ( aversion of the MKI radar). Please do not post frivolous facts.
The AESA radar will be installed on the JF-17 (if a deal is made). It is being offered for JF-17 aircraft only and not for teaching purposes.
This question must be put to the Pakistani delegation in the UK.
sinodefence, huitong and fas.org. You quoted me mentioning the sources and then ask "source?". I doubt whether you read my posts properly.
2 Indian research establishments are in the project.
I havent said the American products are bad. I said Indian and Chinese are equivalent. You havent given a reason as to your argument.
Offtopic :
P.S.> At the expense of sounding rude, I must say that Mr. Munir and Sabre must have the courtesy to not criticize the L** here. They are in the wrong forum (Chinese Mil Aviation) and the wrong thread (JF-17 : New pics) to criticize an Indian aircraft.
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FreeAsia2000
Junior Member
Re: JF-17: New Pics
I think comparing JF-17 to the Mig19's and Mig-21's is going a bit far.
Can we keep this strictly on topic. There is no need to say how well X country has compared to Y in bringing a plane off the drawing board.
The JF-17 must stand on it's own as a good fighter.
The key question is this, after 20 years the F-16 is still a good plane, how will
the JF-17 compare in 15 years time ?
since nearly everybody believes that by 2020 there will be some very strange aircraft out there.
ajaybhutani said:
I think comparing JF-17 to the Mig19's and Mig-21's is going a bit far.
Can we keep this strictly on topic. There is no need to say how well X country has compared to Y in bringing a plane off the drawing board.
The JF-17 must stand on it's own as a good fighter.
The key question is this, after 20 years the F-16 is still a good plane, how will
the JF-17 compare in 15 years time ?
since nearly everybody believes that by 2020 there will be some very strange aircraft out there.