JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[pkj]

Fragment on the conclusions of FULL AVIACION on the Danish F-16 offered to Argentina:

"Proposal to Argentina

Regarding the specimens offered to Argentina, of which the Argentine Air Force (FAA) has detailed technical information. Corresponds to 12 aircraft* with an average of 1200 remaining hours, at a cost of 15 million dollars per aircraft, this figure includes staff training accompanied by a minimum stock of spare parts. It should be added that the offer does not include tools, with which to serve the fighters or ground support equipment (GROUND SUPPORT EQUIPMENT-GSE). Nor is there anything in the proposal, referring to weapons, since it would already be another subsequent contract, and in that case, with the United States.

*Author's Note: When purchased material is "used", a much higher quantity than the requirement must be incorporated, for obvious reasons. Therefore, the number of units offered is insufficient.

It should be added that the F-16 system, beyond its versions, requires various logistics support contracts with Lockheed Martin, such as: Contractor Engineer Technical Services (CETS), Technical Coordination Group (TCG), International Engine Management Program ( IEMP), among others, to be able to operate the weapons system. (See the case of Iraq and the consequences of not accessing them; in that same aspect, see support contract for Oman).

On the other hand and beyond the criteria used to calculate the flight time of a weapon system; An F-16 from the early 1980s, like the MLUs, costs 60% to 80% more per flight hour than a Block 52 from this century. Not to mention, in comparing the operating costs of an MLU, with those of an F-16 0 hours.

This is not a simple speculation in passing, since aircraft with 40 years of use require more intense maintenance and inspection processes. They are prone to unexpected failures, while a greater number of Service Bulletins (BS) must be applied. The same increasingly frequent and costly, since the repairs are of the Major type.

Saving the distances, although the Danish have applied methodically and orderly, all the reforms and reinforcements in the cells, together with what is mandatory in the manual; the more than 40 years of intense use, the structural fatigue, the obsolescence and the hustle and bustle, do not forgive. For more remaining hours that remain in the structures.

As for the Pratt & Whitney F100 220E propulsion system (3300 litres/hour - average consumption in tactical flights), it has not been manufactured for years, for this reason Denmark had to buy used PW220E engines in 2013, in addition to contracting in 2019 a contract with the company Patria Belgium Engine Center SRL, based on comprehensive maintenance. Preventing in this way, mitigating the problems inherent to the wear of the propulsive system. Meanwhile, after the February 2021 incident, with a Belgian F-16 MLU, Patria signed a specific contract with Pratt & Whitney for one-off parts. That is, more maintenance costs, which in turn are transferred to the operating cost. It is worth mentioning that the F-16 Block 40/52 currently in service with the USAF use the F100-PW-229.

In general terms, the F-16 A/B MLU of the European contract is closer to the flight hour costs of a new twin-engine MiG-35, for example, than an F-16 Block 40/52 with the Common Configuration Implementation Program (CCIP) applied.


Conclusions

The Argentine Air Force needs a fourth generation system, whose platform has fifth generation equipment (4++), with which to face the next 40 years. Meanwhile, the system to be adopted must inevitably be sustainable throughout its life cycle, which means that its operating cost is reasonable and its logistics support maintains a projection over time, beyond acquisition costs.

On the other hand, with the transformation of the current F-16 Viper 40/52 of the USAF fleet to the F-16V Block 70, a new standard is born, which will reach a minimum of 2048. From which it follows that an MLU , which does not have the remaining life, nor the structural qualities that would allow it to admit a SLEP of this magnitude, does not qualify.

Finally, it is clear that there are political pressures and that at this point Argentina has very few options when it comes to incorporating a fighter. However, if the way forward is down the F-16 path, clearly this is NOT the F-16 model that will see us through decades to come."

More clearly impossible .....

Greetings from Argentina.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

So, looks like no F-16 for Argentina....

 

[tphuang]

This is a good article on JF-17 and Argentina.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

Additionally, Chinese-backed local assembly and production “would add political incentive to Uruguay, Peru, Ecuador, Bolivia, Venezuela and perhaps Cuba to consider this low-cost fighter,” he added.

If opening up a local assembly line in Argentina can bring in additional orders from neigbhouring countries, then I'm totally in favor. Having more developing countries purchase Chinese hardware is always a good thing.

I'd also be interested in having the entire order paid in beef and Lithium.

 

[Overbom]

This is a good article on JF-17 and Argentina.

Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!

If opening up a local assembly line in Argentina can bring in additional orders from neigbhouring countries, then I'm totally in favor. Having more developing countries purchase Chinese hardware is always a good thing.

I'd also be interested in having the entire order paid in beef and Lithium.

These demands seem excessive to me for a sale that China itself is basically funding for Argentine... Of course China could also ignore these for geopolitical/diplomatic benefits.

However, if Argentine can manage to convince its neighbours to buy the jet then this deal would be a no brainer. It all depends to how China will evaluate Argentine capacity and capability to convince other countries.

However, sources in Argentina told Defense News that officials discussed the possibility of having the FC-1 — the export variant of the JF-17 — assembled in the country, with parts and components supplied by China and Pakistan in addition to some produced locally. The country would eventually want to be able to make major modifications to its own FC-1 aircraft, said military officers and government officials, speaking on the condition of anonymity because of concerns over job security.

 

[minime]

Not sure what geopolitical/diplomatic benefits can Argentina offer to China.
I think it's a more pure business kind of relationship.

 

[Andy1974]

Not sure what geopolitical/diplomatic benefits can Argentina offer to China.
I think it's a more pure business kind of relationship.

Same reason tobacco companies target kids.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Not sure what geopolitical/diplomatic benefits can Argentina offer to China.
I think it's a more pure business kind of relationship.

Foothold in South America is not enough?

 

[Pacific]

Not sure what geopolitical/diplomatic benefits can Argentina offer to China.
I think it's a more pure business kind of relationship.

When it comes to Argentina specifically, it's more about space/information.

China already operates a space tracking station in Argentina. If you'll notice, the direct opposite of China on this globe isn't North America, but South America.

Having a land based aerospace tracking and satellite tracking stations, as well as maybe communication relays in South America greatly increases awareness and improves information for China. Space is the ultimate high ground after all.

 

[tphuang]

Not sure what geopolitical/diplomatic benefits can Argentina offer to China.
I think it's a more pure business kind of relationship.

That depends on whether you think auto industry and energy storage is important. Chile, Argentina and Bolivia are where the largest lithium are found and also have huge copper reserves. Both critical to battery pproduction.

Aside from that, having a major foothold in the southern part of hemisphere have serious geopolitical implications.

Military sales have a way of putting those countries in your dependence. So yes, I am for getting Argentina, Chile, Bolivia and Brazil to all use Chinese weapons.

 

[minime]

That depends on whether you think auto industry and energy storage is important. Chile, Argentina and Bolivia are where the largest lithium are found and also have huge copper reserves. Both critical to battery pproduction.

Aside from that, having a major foothold in the southern part of hemisphere have serious geopolitical implications.

Military sales have a way of putting those countries in your dependence. So yes, I am for getting Argentina, Chile, Bolivia and Brazil to all use Chinese weapons.

Lithium! That's exactly what I'm talking about, business relationships, and satellite tracking stations are the same, China has one over there already.
To establish an exclusive right to the mineral through arms sales? Not likely IMO
Argentina doesn't have serious security pressure.
Falklands is secondary compared to the economic disasters happening right now.
It just gonna be a money pit for China.

 

[tphuang]

Lithium! That's exactly what I'm talking about, business relationships, and satellite tracking stations are the same, China has one over there already.
To establish an exclusive right to the mineral through arms sales? Not likely IMO
Argentina doesn't have serious security pressure.
Falklands is secondary compared to the economic disasters happening right now.
It just gonna be a money pit for China.

I don't quite understand what you are saying here. Having good relationship with countries that have the largest deposit is a great thing. It gives china leverage to ensure that most if not all of the lithium processing is either done in china or by Chinese companies.

I don't get what is a money pit here. An argentinian, Chilean and Bolivian military that use mostly Chinese military hardware are more likely to be aligned with china and be part of Chinese supply chain.

What is china giving up here? This is a win win for both countries.