JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[voyager1]

Argentina want block 3

Thats ok. However some technologies from the Pakistani JF-17s Block 3 may have to get removed as the newest Block 3 allegedly incorporates some J-20 tech

PL-10 and PL-15 which installed on J-20

Does China have export variants of these missiles (I assume they have)? If yes then along with some political guarantees (not allow US access, send them to a US friendly country etc) I dont see why China couldn't sell them to Argentine

China ask for 50m per aircraft, Argentina want a big bargain (best specs with bargain price)

This is an issue. They even want some local manufacturing and they dont even want to pay extra?
IMO this will go down to China political leaders choosing to give a bargain so that they can gain a foothold in Latin America for further Chinese weapon sales. Argentine may know this which is why they are pushing for so many "perks". Complex issue, we will see

Argentina ask for local production line.

No country driven by purely commercial reasons would open a local production line for just 12 fighter jets.
However this, as I mentioned above, will also be a political decision by China

IMO China wants access to Latin America weapon market, increase sales, draw them into their influence, remove some of US military influence, gain international recognition of its military products.

However Argentine knows about China's intentions and they will drive a hard bargain for their interests.

As this is a win-win situation for both sides, i dont see why this deal couldn't happen if a political agreement (or informal understanding) was reached.

 

[siegecrossbow]

Thats ok. However some technologies from the Pakistani JF-17s Block 3 may have to get removed as the newest Block 3 allegedly incorporates some J-20 tech


Does China have export variants of these missiles (I assume they have)? If yes then along with some political guarantees (not allow US access, send them to a US friendly country etc) I dont see why China couldn't sell them to Argentine



This is an issue. They even want some local manufacturing and they dont even want to pay extra?
IMO this will go down to China political leaders choosing to give a bargain so that they can gain a foothold in Latin America for further Chinese weapon sales. Argentine may know this which is why they are pushing for so many "perks". Complex issue, we will see



No country driven by purely commercial reasons would open a local production line for just 12 fighter jets.
However this, as I mentioned above, will also be a political decision by China

IMO China wants access to Latin America weapon market, increase sales, draw them into their influence, remove some of US military influence, gain international recognition of its military products.

However Argentine knows about China's intentions and they will drive a hard bargain for their interests.

As this is a win-win situation for both sides, i dont see why this deal couldn't happen if a political agreement (or informal understanding) was reached.

PL-10 is confirmed as a JF-17 block III prototype was recently spotted carrying it. PL-15 might be a bit touchy since it represents the latest and greatest of PLAAF BVR missiles. It could either be a boon to the deal or be a source of data leak. If China does export the PL-15, I think they’ll export a monkey model with reduced range (unless it is to a major ally like Pakistan).

 

[voyager1]

PL-10 is confirmed as a JF-17 block III prototype was recently spotted carrying it. PL-15 might be a bit touchy since it represents the latest and greatest of PLAAF BVR missiles. It could either be a boon to the deal or be a source of data leak. If China does export the PL-15, I think they’ll export a monkey model with reduced range (unless it is to a major ally like Pakistan).

Definetely. The missiles that Pakistan will get will for sure not be the same (potentially) sold to Argentine. China and Pakistan are very close so China will naturally give it much more capable missiles than Argentine

Everyone knows how things work (or dont..) in Latin America. Better to keep your goodies for yourself and your close allies

 

[plawolf]

PL-10 is confirmed as a JF-17 block III prototype was recently spotted carrying it. PL-15 might be a bit touchy since it represents the latest and greatest of PLAAF BVR missiles. It could either be a boon to the deal or be a source of data leak. If China does export the PL-15, I think they’ll export a monkey model with reduced range (unless it is to a major ally like Pakistan).

Any export version of the PL15 would see electronics and software changes as opposed to missile ranges. They can easily just throw in a bigger/different warhead if they were concerned about potentially hostile forces getting detailed NEZ figures for the missile, but I think the likes of the US would be able to make a pretty good guess from missile dimensions alone such that tweaking it to add or subtract a few miles isn’t really worth the effort.

The really sensitive part will be the electronics like seeker, datalink and ECCM etc. But given Pakistan’s long and continuing close relations with the US, I think that has already long been factored into any arms sales considerations for China, and China is unlikely to give Pakistan anything that could compromise the equipment its own forces operate.

 

[davidau]

Any export version of the PL15 would see electronics and software changes as opposed to missile ranges. They can easily just throw in a bigger/different warhead if they were concerned about potentially hostile forces getting detailed NEZ figures for the missile, but I think the likes of the US would be able to make a pretty good guess from missile dimensions alone such that tweaking it to add or subtract a few miles isn’t really worth the effort.

The really sensitive part will be the electronics like seeker, datalink and ECCM etc. But given Pakistan’s long and continuing close relations with the US, I think that has already long been factored into any arms sales considerations for China, and China is unlikely to give Pakistan anything that could compromise the equipment its own forces operate.

China has been helping Paks for such a long time, one would think the Paks will play its cards right towards China. The yanks are playing some dirty political games, as usual.

 

[Deino]

Guys ... can we stay on topic and if you want to debate political implications in detail or operational use in certain AFs, then please in the correct section.

 

[plawolf]

China has been helping Paks for such a long time, one would think the Paks will play its cards right towards China. The yanks are playing some dirty political games, as usual.

It’s not just political will. The likes of the CIA have been running around unchecked in Pakistan for so long that China would have to assume they would be able to get a detailed look see at anything they supply to Pakistan, and thus plan accordingly.

A lot of the systems in the BLK3 may have benefited from tech developed for the J20, but China would have made sure that any such technologies exported would not be able to directly compromise anything the PLAAF have in active deployment. China has the breadth and depth in its industry to easily facilitate that.

 

[siegecrossbow]

It’s not just political will. The likes of the CIA have been running around unchecked in Pakistan for so long that China would have to assume they would be able to get a detailed look see at anything they supply to Pakistan, and thus plan accordingly.

A lot of the systems in the BLK3 may have benefited from tech developed for the J20, but China would have made sure that any such technologies exported would not be able to directly compromise anything the PLAAF have in active deployment. China has the breadth and depth in its industry to easily facilitate that.

Block 3 does use tech from J-20/J-10C, but whatever they have is already neutered by the airframe size. For starters KLJ-7A has a max detection range of 170KM against 5M^2 targets because the nose cone size restricts how large the radar could be.

 

[Mohsin77]

The PL-15 is not the highest tier of China's AAM tech. The "PL-21/XX" is, and that's what is supposed to compete with the highest tier of NATO missiles currently in development (JATM/T3 etc.)

As for the Block III (the PAF version) the PL-15 has become necessary purely due to the introduction of the Meteor in theater. We saw how important BVR was during the last engagement between the PAF and IAF in 2019. It's not the only factor, but it is a very important one. Integration of the PL-15 on the Block III is a must-have at this point. And it still makes me apprehensive that we don't have official confirmation that our Block III's will have it yet.

p.s. I think the CIA's reach within Pakistan is being over-estimated a bit. It's one thing for the CIA to be operating a few cells in Baluchistan, but it is quite another for them to gain access to key installations and classified military files. Pakistan is not an easy place for the CIA to operate, because there isn't much trust left between Pak and the US, nor do I expect this relationship to ever be repaired fully. It will remain a relationship of mutual suspicion. We just have different goals, and both sides understand and respect this fact now. We can work on common intersections in certain areas, but the lines in the sand are clearly drawn now.

 

[siegecrossbow]

The PL-15 is not the highest tier of China's AAM tech. The "PL-21/XX" is, and that's what is supposed to compete with the highest tier of NATO missiles currently in development (JATM/T3 etc.)

As for the Block III (the PAF version) the PL-15 has become necessary purely due to the introduction of the Meteor in theater. We saw how important BVR was during the last engagement between the PAF and IAF in 2019. It's not the only factor, but it is a very important one. Integration of the PL-15 on the Block III is a must-have at this point. And it still makes me apprehensive that we don't have official confirmation that our Block III's will have it yet.

p.s. I think the CIA's reach within Pakistan is being over-estimated a bit. It's one thing for the CIA to be operating a few cells in Baluchistan, but it is quite another for them to gain access to key installations and classified military files. Pakistan is not an easy place for the CIA to operate, because there isn't much trust left between Pak and the US, nor do I expect this relationship to ever be repaired fully. It will remain a relationship of mutual suspicion. We just have different goals, and both sides understand and respect this fact now.

Sorry but you are using missile range as the pure rubric here. PL-21/XX is in the same class as the R-37 and AIM-54, which are long distance missiles designed to target high-value assets at very long distances. R-37 has only 2/3 the G load of a R-77, which makes it less suitable against maneuvering fighter aircraft. PL-15/AIM-120D can perform both roles.