JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

Brumby

Major
Again I feel the need to be blunt. Given Pakistan's chronic financial and geopolitical difficulties, it simply doesn't have the luxury to go shopping around as it pleases with China's money. If it wants to do that, it can do it with its own money.

Can you actually provide a nexus (with facts) that Pakistan is using Chinese money when it goes shopping for targettng and ECM pods? Are there restrictive cooperative or loan covenants to your knowledge that imposes such conditions upon Pakistan? What you are describing infringes upon Pakistan's sovereign independence as a nation. Your comments reflect a belief that Pakistan is a vessel state of China.
 

Brumby

Major
49279748273_5bf67d1331_k.jpg

49279747313_3dfe912f02_k.jpg

49280445942_37b0614e55_o_d.jpg

49279764993_1a3f8a40ad_h.jpg

49280445887_4da8e7def7_o.jpg

PAF's decision on a air-cooled AESA was the most expected as it is a quicker and cheaper pathway to roll out the upgrade both in Block 3 and to retrofit existing blocks. An air-cooled dispenses with extensive re-plumbing required and it can also start prototyping/testing on a Block 2 airframe.

A specs of 170 kms detection against a fighter size target which typically implies 3 or 5 m2 target. That translates to a range of 129 to 114 kms against a 1 m2 target. Against SU-30MKI say of 10m2 would mean a detection range of 229 to 203 kms.
 

ZeEa5KPul

Colonel
Registered Member
Are there restrictive cooperative or loan covenants to your knowledge that imposes such conditions upon Pakistan?
No, China doesn't act like America, unfortunately. The JF-17 was designed and built when China was a nobody, so it had to put up with silliness like Pakistan buying foreign electronics to stuff in it - what a joke. No longer. China is far from a nobody now, and things are going to be changed. If Pakistan wants to have Turkish targetting pods and German ECM pods and French urine cups in its stealth fighter then it can design and build that stealth fighter on its own.

What you are describing infringes upon Pakistan's sovereign independence as a nation. Your comments reflect a belief that Pakistan is a vessel state of China.
TFW an American talks to me about sovereign independence and vassalage. Sovereignty, like everything else, has a price; if one is unable to afford that price, then one must settle for less than perfect sovereignty.
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
Whoa gentleman, let's reduce the rhetoric here... we are discussing geopolitics not sports.

Turkey is especially problematic. Turkey has delusional neo-Ottoman designs on China's territory, and the entire ETIM terrorist movement and those in its orbit are sustained by Turkey. One of China's long-term strategic objectives should be to dissolve the economic and defence (and eventually cultural and historical) links between Pakistan and Turkey, and such a policy of barring Turkish involvement in Chinese defence products is a small step in the right direction.

Your opinion contradicts the facts. Let's look at those first before speculating:
  1. Turkey has already done a U-Turn and stopped criticizing China on the Uighur issue (which is exactly the right move.) The fact of the matter is, that Turkey and China have common ground and their interests in the region are converging.
  2. Why would China oppose Pakistan getting help from countries when it knows that reduces the burden on China? This is why China has always encouraged Pakistan to maintain good relations with the US. Pakistan being isolated doesn't help China.
  3. As for Project Azm, obviously, the integration of everything will be dependent on China's approval, just like it was for the JF-17. It wasn't like Pakistan integrated Turkish pods without China's approval.
Now for the speculations/forecasts based on the above 3 facts. I expect Turkey and China's cooperation to grow, and I also expect Pakistan to help smooth things out between these two nations. Remember, the Ottomans supported China and Turkey is turning back to the Ottoman model today. The Ottomans even refused to support the Uighurs because they knew the Soviets were fueling that movement against the Chinese. The economic and military potential of China combined with the fact that Turkey will never be accepted by the EU means that it will eventually get closer to China. That's my forecast.

As for Pakistan, we have the advantage of being on good terms with everyone above =) Our relations with the US are the most tricky, but neither country wants to completely alienate the other because of the situation in CENTCOM where the US does not want Pakistan to play spoiler (and it also does not want India to dominate the region.) The country most worried about this is India. There was an article in their economic times recently which clearly stated that India's attempts at isolating Pakistan have completely failed. That is a win both for Pakistan and China.

Anywayzz, let's get back to more Block III pics and newz plz
 

lgnxz

Junior Member
Registered Member
What you are describing infringes upon Pakistan's sovereign independence as a nation. Your comments reflect a belief that Pakistan is a vessel state of China.
lol.. First of all it doesn't infringe anyone's sovereignty at all; pakistan can freely make their own fighter jets. However, if they want cooperation with china, especially if the majority of the techs are also from china, then it's logical for china to get right to say on the project. Imagine it like a common majority shareholder having the most power on decision making on how to run a company ahead of the minority shareholder.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out by other member, you should start looking at the mirror on how western countries, especially the americans, are running their military business. From threatening unrelated economic sanctions to countries (egypt, indonesia just on top of my head, surely there are many more) that are buying russian fighters, to barring fellow nato turkey from the f-35 (they are also originally involved in the JSF development; a further parallel to this topic) for purchasing s-400, and finally going back to pakistan, restricting the usage of the already bought american f-16. It seems to me that buy or no buy you're still screwed when dealing with this 'benevolent superpower' :rolleyes:

If you consider china is infringing pakistan' sovereignty and making pakistan a vassal state for merely opting out of the imaginary 5th gen joint development due to pakistan refusal of sticking with chinese techs, what do you think of the relation between your own country and the rest of the western hemisphere with US and its even more coercive behavior? A relation between slaves and their master? :)
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
PAF's decision on a air-cooled AESA was the most expected as it is a quicker and cheaper pathway to roll out the upgrade both in Block 3 and to retrofit existing blocks. An air-cooled dispenses with extensive re-plumbing required and it can also start prototyping/testing on a Block 2 airframe.

A specs of 170 kms detection against a fighter size target which typically implies 3 or 5 m2 target. That translates to a range of 129 to 114 kms against a 1 m2 target. Against SU-30MKI say of 10m2 would mean a detection range of 229 to 203 kms.

I don't think we've had confirmation as to which AESA the PAF has chosen yet -- from memory, we knew that LKF601E was test flown on one of CAC's JF-17 prototypes back in late 2018 when the radar was shown at Zhuhai airshow.

However no decision has been confirmed yet afaik
 

Brumby

Major
No, China doesn't act like America, unfortunately. The JF-17 was designed and built when China was a nobody, so it had to put up with silliness like Pakistan buying foreign electronics to stuff in it - what a joke. No longer. China is far from a nobody now, and things are going to be changed. If Pakistan wants to have Turkish targetting pods and German ECM pods and French urine cups in its stealth fighter then it can design and build that stealth fighter on its own.

TFW an American talks to me about sovereign independence and vassalage. Sovereignty, like everything else, has a price; if one is unable to afford that price, then one must settle for less than perfect sovereignty.

The conversation was about Pakistan spending China's money - not about America. If you have facts that Pakistan is not living up to its terms then lay it out All joint venture agreements have stated responsibilities, obligations and what constitute infringements of agreed terms.

lol.. First of all it doesn't infringe anyone's sovereignty at all; pakistan can freely make their own fighter jets. However, if they want cooperation with china, especially if the majority of the techs are also from china, then it's logical for china to get right to say on the project. Imagine it like a common majority shareholder having the most power on decision making on how to run a company ahead of the minority shareholder.
Joint venture agreements are not about logic but what are reflected in the agreement and any actions are grounded on those terms. China provided support to Pakistan not because it was being benevolent. Pakistan fitted into China's strategic interest to offset against India. It is an arrangement that serves each country's interest.

Furthermore, as has been pointed out by other member, you should start looking at the mirror on how western countries, especially the americans, are running their military business. From threatening unrelated economic sanctions to countries (egypt, indonesia just on top of my head, surely there are many more) that are buying russian fighters, to barring fellow nato turkey from the f-35 (they are also originally involved in the JSF development; a further parallel to this topic) for purchasing s-400, and finally going back to pakistan, restricting the usage of the already bought american f-16. It seems to me that buy or no buy you're still screwed when dealing with this 'benevolent superpower' :rolleyes:

If you consider china is infringing pakistan' sovereignty and making pakistan a vassal state for merely opting out of the imaginary 5th gen joint development due to pakistan refusal of sticking with chinese techs, what do you think of the relation between your own country and the rest of the western hemisphere with US and its even more coercive behavior? A relation between

slaves and their master? :)

This thread is about the JF-17 a product of China and Pakistan's efforts. Don't draq the US into the conversation. Defend your position based on the merits of your argument.

I don't think we've had confirmation as to which AESA the PAF has chosen yet -- from memory, we knew that LKF601E was test flown on one of CAC's JF-17 prototypes back in late 2018 when the radar was shown at Zhuhai airshow.

However no decision has been confirmed yet afaik

I am merely commenting on the information posted. All the related posts seem to suggest that the decision is taken. Are you saying they are speculations?
 

Blitzo

Lieutenant General
Staff member
Super Moderator
Registered Member
I am merely commenting on the information posted. All the related posts seem to suggest that the decision is taken. Are you saying they are speculations?

Which posts have suggested that we know that a decision has been made?

From a quick skim over the last few pages, I can't see anyone claiming to know which AESA JF-17 Block III will go with.

Siege did post a picture showing a JF-17 testing a radar that looks like LKF601E yes, but that tells us nothing about which radar the PAF has actually committed to for Block III, and as I wrote before, we had confirmation in November 2018 that JF-17 had already been at least installed with LKF601E as well.
 

lgnxz

Junior Member
Registered Member
Pakistan fitted into China's strategic interest to offset against India. It is an arrangement that serves each country's interest.
Yeah and how does this match with your accusation of china infringing on pakistan' sovereignty? With or without the next joint program the relation between china and pakistan is already very close that developing further fighter program just for increasing the ties is very unnecessary, especially if the program is negatively affecting china's personal interest by incorporating a nato member into it. The audacity of you suggesting that this is even remotely possible or equally beneficial to both sides is just astonishing.
This thread is about the JF-17 a product of China and Pakistan's efforts. Don't draq the US into the conversation. Defend your position based on the merits of your argument
I did by simply pointing out that what china could do in the scenario is way less coercive than what the typical norms of dealing with western/nato military business are. 'Dragging' the US into this is absolutely fine since it points out your double standard in observing china's normal behavior. The turkey's f-35 ousting is actually a perfect mirroring of the imaginary scenario that we're discussing (but again with more coercive reaction from the US), yet I doubt you will apply the same accusation you have done to china to the americans.

Anyway, I presented my arguments, what about yours?? What make you think that merely backing away from a clearly compromised program is infringing someone else' sovereignty? Heck, in this scenario china won't even start the program with pakistan from the beginning since all the details regarding the techs acquisition must have been put in the contract (again compare and contrast with turkey's ousting in a program that has been signed and worked on for decades). No paper will be signed, no nothing. Merits of the argument you said? Here it goes: how's refusing to sign a paper and start a program from the beginning is 'infringing pakistan' sovereignty and making them to be china's vassal‘???? The more I breakdown your arguments the more ridiculous it sounds, doesn't it? :)
 

Mohsin77

Senior Member
Registered Member
What are you people even arguing about? Turkey does not want to join Project Azm, it has its own TF-X program. In fact, Turkey asked Pakistan to join its TF-X program, but Pakistan has not said anything about that, because obviously the Azm project will be linked to China instead.

And the cooperation that we have with Turkey is geared towards building up our local academic and industrial base for 5th gen, which obviously China has no problem (we are working with both) because China wants Pakistan to get up to speed in 5th gen research ASAP. We don't have the funds to buy everything 5th gen off-the-shelf, which means we will need to do some work ourselves. We will also need to maintain a 5th logistical chain which requires R&D. That's what PAC's cooperation with Turkey and China is about at the moment, we are not building anything yet. There is NO CONFLICT to split the tech, because there is no tech right now. We're literally just reading books on what "5th gen" even is.
 
Last edited:
Top