JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread
- Thread starter johnqh
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Come on; doe we really need to post each speculative report especially if from such an unreliable source!!??
Why? From most reports I know, the KLJ-7A is the more likely option.
3 Radar Options for JF 17 B3...
The centerpiece of the Block 3 will be its active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Though the PAF CAS stated that the selection is now down to “one of two new Chinese AESA radars,” (i.e., the KLJ-7A and the LKF601E ) Alan Warns reported that the Leonardo Grifo-E “is still on the table.”
Leonardo unveiled the Grifo-E in 2018 as a low-cost AESA radar solution for lightweight combat aircraft. However, the Grifo-E uses gallium-nitride (GaN)-based transmit/receive modules (TRM), which are more efficient in terms of power consumption than older gallium-arsenide (GaA)-based TRMs.
The Grifo-E can simultaneously track up to 24 targets (the LKF601E can track 15), but its range for picking up “fighter-sized targets” are 139 km to 157 km ( Leonardo). The LKF601E can track “fighter-sized targets” at up to 170 km. Otherwise, the Grifo-E, KLJ-7A, and LKF601E appear to have similar features, though the Grifo-E also includes an “inverse synthetic aperture radar” (ISAR) for “seaborne and airborne targets.”
Seeing how Leonardo opened an office in Islamabad, the company’s willingness to sell the Grifo-E is not a concern. Rather, the main constraint with selecting any Western radar is that the PAF will have trouble in integrating Chinese radar-guided munitions – i.e., the SD-10 beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) and the C-802 anti-ship missile (AShM) – to the radar. The PAF’s Chinese and Western partners will not share their respective source-codes to enable for such integration.
I assume this Italian radar is using the same base technology as in the Grippen-NG radar also by Leonardo.
If that is the case it should be a good radar. I could see them make this work by integrating the existing F-16 stockpile weapons they have and possibly some IRIS-T/Meteor missiles if those become available for purchase. Considering the current Italian government's posture I think they would not torpedo the deal. But the missiles are indeed an issue. I kind of get that the Italians don't want to leak radar specs to the Chinese and the Chinese won't want to leak weapon specs to the West. Even if you don't provide information about the data-link capability knowing precise weapon specs alone would be a security issue. So Pakistan would have to integrate the weapon themselves and I think this would be difficult without cooperation.
To simplify logistics I think the most sensible option is to go with the Chinese radar even if it has worse performance for some reason. Given the already made Block I/II purchases and available weapons stockpiles, it would be like you had to integrate a completely new weapons system. This is expensive for any nation let alone a middle income economy like Pakistan.
Still it does make one wonder. If European missiles were provided, wouldn't Pakistan be better off having a more diverse weapons selection, in case there is some issue with one of the weapon systems becoming vulnerable for some reason? Food for thought.
I think one possibility would be fitting this Grifo-E radar on the Block III together with the IRIS-T/Meteor, and AIM-9/AMRAAM from existing stocks. They could also get the Italians to upgrade their F-16s to use the IRIS-T.
Then they would use the Chinese radar to upgrade Block I/II aircraft with AESA radar while remaining compatible with existing weapons stocks.
This way they would have modern platforms which can use NATO and Chinese spec weapons.
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Brumby
Major
There is no Grifo-E product. The first prototype is expected to be available around now with development testing until 2019. Given the nature of the product and the new technology, it is highly aggressive to assume complete development testing by end of the year.
I think it is better that the PAF stick with the Chinese. Lesson should be adopted from the difficulty the Indians are experiencing trying to integrate French missiles onto Russian airframes with Israeli avionics in between. Tat will not go well.
It is typically impossible to compare AESA radar capabilities between different producers because the variables used to measure performance are not known like, SNR: target RCS: probability of detection; dwell time; radar mode; et al.
I think it is better that the PAF stick with the Chinese. Lesson should be adopted from the difficulty the Indians are experiencing trying to integrate French missiles onto Russian airframes with Israeli avionics in between. Tat will not go well.
It is typically impossible to compare AESA radar capabilities between different producers because the variables used to measure performance are not known like, SNR: target RCS: probability of detection; dwell time; radar mode; et al.
3 Radar Options for JF 17 B3...
The centerpiece of the Block 3 will be its active electronically scanned array (AESA) radar. Though the PAF CAS stated that the selection is now down to “one of two new Chinese AESA radars,” (i.e., the KLJ-7A and the LKF601E ) Alan Warns reported that the Leonardo Grifo-E “is still on the table.”
Leonardo unveiled the Grifo-E in 2018 as a low-cost AESA radar solution for lightweight combat aircraft. However, the Grifo-E uses gallium-nitride (GaN)-based transmit/receive modules (TRM), which are more efficient in terms of power consumption than older gallium-arsenide (GaA)-based TRMs.
The Grifo-E can simultaneously track up to 24 targets (the LKF601E can track 15), but its range for picking up “fighter-sized targets” are 139 km to 157 km ( Leonardo). The LKF601E can track “fighter-sized targets” at up to 170 km. Otherwise, the Grifo-E, KLJ-7A, and LKF601E appear to have similar features, though the Grifo-E also includes an “inverse synthetic aperture radar” (ISAR) for “seaborne and airborne targets.”
Seeing how Leonardo opened an office in Islamabad, the company’s willingness to sell the Grifo-E is not a concern. Rather, the main constraint with selecting any Western radar is that the PAF will have trouble in integrating Chinese radar-guided munitions – i.e., the SD-10 beyond-visual-range (BVR) air-to-air missile (AAM) and the C-802 anti-ship missile (AShM) – to the radar. The PAF’s Chinese and Western partners will not share their respective source-codes to enable for such integration.
One of the pictures there show a slotted array radar, not an AESA.
Another mistake the article made is that you don't need to share source code for weapon integration. All the radar needs is to comply to a common military standard bus, and then the weapons to comply to the same bus.
TerraN_EmpirE
Tyrant King
Grifo series started out as a mechanically scanned array the name shouldn’t be new to anyone.
It’s a drop in radar refit for light fighters like F5, Jf7, L139 and Mirage III in particular Pakistani Project ROSE Mirage III used a Grifo M3 Radar.
Grifo E is supposed to be the next gen of that series adding AESA technology again for light fighters that could use an update. I think I recently read that one of the Bidders for an Adversary contract to the USN was offering to upgrade second hand F5 Tiger II with that series once Available.
I doubt Pakistan is buying it. There FC17 are basically getting OEM in systems and still very new. It might come up for export assuming it gets wider export.
asif iqbal
Lieutenant General
Just finalise the bloody thing
So much discussion and keep delaying
I need to see Block 3 soon
Otherwise I will stop following this project
I hope PAF is listening and take note
So much discussion and keep delaying
I need to see Block 3 soon
Otherwise I will stop following this project
I hope PAF is listening and take note
Just finalise the bloody thing
So much discussion and keep delaying
I need to see Block 3 soon
Otherwise I will stop following this project
I hope PAF is listening and take note
Hey delay? All reliable sources always mentioned late-2019 ... so IMO it is still on track, only we fans are too impatient.