JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

ougoah

Brigadier
Registered Member
Oh I assumed Hendrik claimed it is better. Sorry I misread the entire post. Hendrik was just quoting the article and the article mentioned similar performance. I swear I read it as better performance many times and couldn't believe it. My mistake there. I believe it is a reputable enough source since it has more connection to Chinese military and hasn't really been particularly pro or anti anyone in the past unlike many other sources. But the use of similar in performance is probably quite open to interpretation on purpose. It's ambiguous language so sharing AESA tech with F-35's is similar in performance on some level.

Who knows. I don't want to believe any of this performance claims on either side of the coin but will believe that this radar is definitely of a decent quality since it's for PAF and they won't accept rubbish or something really expensive that doesn't offer tremendous advantage over previous radars. Therefore it is safe to assume it's a good budget AESA radar all round. Early days. They're still testing it. Love the fact that they could build a radar like this for a cheap fighter with smaller economies of scale. That fact is most revealing.
 

Dizasta1

Senior Member
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Advanced radar boosts FC-1 Xiaolong’s combat capacity

One of three most important components that constitute Block-lll Thunders. It's only a matter of time that the other two crucial aspects of Block-lll Thunders are achieved. The success of that, would see the Thunder's development continue.
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here the same picture but much better lighting. We can see clearly the T/R module
via cnleio
China testing domestic aircraft phased array radar
:)
11-jpg.438707
22-jpg.438708


DPFs8R3UQAABN_J.jpg
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
One of three most important components that constitute Block-lll Thunders. It's only a matter of time that the other two crucial aspects of Block-lll Thunders are achieved. The success of that, would see the Thunder's development continue.

I am not so familiar with JF 17 Block III upgrade, I got this article from Quwa
Seem like the block III upgrade is very extensive. And I don't know the wisdom of souped up basically a cheap and affordable fighter into some kind of super fighter, Is HMD necessary? I think it is luxury but time will tell
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November 23, 2017
JF-17-5-692x360.png


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Mar 20, 2017
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PAKISTAN INCHES CLOSER TO JF-17 BLOCK-III

In 2017, the Pakistan Air Force (PAF) is
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to order the Block-III variant of the JF-17, which is co-produced by Pakistan Aeronautical Complex (PAC) and the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC). It seems that specific details regarding the JF-17 Block-III’s subsystems and design attributes are emerging, and the forthcoming JF-17B, the dual-seat variant of the Thunder, could inform much of it.

The JF-17 Block-III is the first major update of the Thunder, a lightweight multi-role fighter positioned as a cost-effective successor to legacy Cold War-era combat aircraft, such as the MiG-21, Mirage III/5, F-7, F-5 Tiger II and others. Currently, the PAF has more than 70 JF-17 Block-I and Block-II fighters, which are in service with five fighter units – four squadrons and a training unit at the PAF Combat Commanders School.

In 2015, the PAF revealed that the JF-17 Block-III would be equipped with an active electronically-scanned array (AESA) radar, helmet-mounted display and sight (HMD/S) system, updated avionics and electronic warfare (EW) and electronic countermeasures (ECM) systems, and potentially an infrared search and track (
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) system (see: “
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” for an understanding of how an AESA radar, HMD/S, etc, would improve the JF-17). However, specific details regarding the airframe and engine were not provided, leaving observers curious as to how the Thunder would manage the requisite cooling and weight requirements of the new subsystems, especially the AESA radar.

However, the dual-seat JF-17B might have incorporated those critical airframe changes. Alan Warnes (via
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) reports that the JF-17B has a taller tail, a larger nose and new internal spaces for fuel (to compensate for the space lost from the second seat). The JF-17B’s tail houses components for a new three-axis fly-by-wire (FBW) system. The larger nose was designed for an AESA radar (though the initial builds of the JF-17B will be equipped with the KLJ-7). If one factors out the second-seat, the single-seat JF-17 Block-III could possibly retain the JF-17B’s added internal fuel space.

It is not known if the JF-17B and/or JF-17 Block-III will incorporate a higher proportion of composites, which would help with reducing the weight of the airframe. At the 2016 Defence Services Asia exhibition, PAF officials had told
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that PAC was
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for the JF-17. The RD-33MK and WS-13 were cited as the leading options. The RD-33MK is marginally heavier than the RD-93 (dry weight:
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vs.
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) but has a higher afterburning thrust output (9,000 kgf vs. 8,300 kgf). There are clear thrust-to-weight ratio gains to be had, but it is not known if the PAF will pursue them with the Block-III.

Cost, regulatory ease and technical compatibility with existing weapons will likely push the PAF to select a Chinese AESA radar for the Block-III. The Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET)
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reportedly promises a range of 170 km for targets with a radar cross-section (RCS) of 5 m2 and capacity to track and engage 15 and 4 targets, respectively (
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). Pakistan will likely sole-source the EW/ECM as well, which would ideally use active phased-array transceiver modules (TRM).

The HMD/S-selection and inclusion of IRST are not known. At Air Show China 2016, AVIC displayed what appeared to be an HMD/S concept, but it has yet to showcase a marketable HMD/S product. The HMD/S market is confined to a handful of suppliers, with Elbit, BAE Systems and Thales
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outside of Russia. Regarding IRST. It is possible, though unconfirmed, that the enlarged nose could potentially have room for an integrated IRST system. Otherwise, the PAF could dedicate a specialist hardpoint on the airframe for special mission equipment, be it IRST, targeting pods or EW/ECM pods.

Assuming PAC and CAC succeed in pushing the JF-17 Block-III into production from 2019, the 2020s should amount to an eventful period for the PAF. Unless the PAF secures another platform, the JF-17 Block-III is basically the PAF’s next qualitative driver, introducing contemporary technologies – such as AESA radars – to the fighter flee
 

Zahid

Junior Member
I am not so familiar with JF 17 Block III upgrade, I got this article from Quwa
Seem like the block III upgrade is very extensive. And I don't know the wisdom of souped up basically a cheap and affordable fighter into some kind of super fighter, Is HMD necessary? I think it is luxury but time will tell

Affordable, as in affordable to acquire and operate. There is nothing cheap about JF-17. If you are going to put a 4th generation (3rd gen in Chinese system) multirole fighter up in the air, you might as well give it teeth and ability to protect itself. All are equal in the air and are equally fair game. Generations do not matter.

If a customer's budget does not allow him to afford Block-III, they can get a Block-II and enjoy the benefit of security, economy of acquisition, and economy of operation. If they want to get an upgrade, it should be available for a price. If a customer can afford Block-III, they will enjoy benefit of greater security, reasonable economy of acquisition, and economy of operation. The allure of this program is an upgrade path from basic multirole 4th gen to a potent 4.5 gen multirole asset, without having to blow an hole in your budget.

Moreover, a pilot needs confidence in his machine. Affordability of operation translates into a higher number of hours in the air and consequently sharper skills in combat. PAF F-86 downed IAF Mig-21 in 1971 war, despite difference in generations and operational envelopes.
 

FORBIN

Lieutenant General
Registered Member
Affordable, as in affordable to acquire and operate. There is nothing cheap about JF-17. If you are going to put a 4th generation (3rd gen in Chinese system) multirole fighter up in the air, you might as well give it teeth and ability to protect itself. All are equal in the air and are equally fair game. Generations do not matter.

If a customer's budget does not allow him to afford Block-III, they can get a Block-II and enjoy the benefit of security, economy of acquisition, and economy of operation. If they want to get an upgrade, it should be available for a price. If a customer can afford Block-III, they will enjoy benefit of greater security, reasonable economy of acquisition, and economy of operation. The allure of this program is an upgrade path from basic multirole 4th gen to a potent 4.5 gen multirole asset, without having to blow an hole in your budget.

Moreover, a pilot needs confidence in his machine. Affordability of operation translates into a higher number of hours in the air and consequently sharper skills in combat. PAF F-86 downed IAF Mig-21 in 1971 war, despite difference in generations and operational envelopes.

How you say it ?
Unit cost
Block 1: US$~25 million
Block 2: US$ ~28 million
Block 3: US$ ~32 million
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What price for a flight hour ?
 

Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Henri K take on the subject. I doubt that Pakistan will choose Selex because of incompatibility with the rest of avionic
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KLJ-7A: China's first AESA embedded radar dedicated to export is in flight

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After its first public appearance at the Zhuhai air show last year, the KLJ-7A , China's first active electronic scanning radar (AESA) entirely dedicated to export, has disappeared from the radar screens. Its manufacturer, the Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology(NRIET), better known as Institute 14 of the CETC group, also remained very discreet on the subject.

And it is in
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, broadcast this Monday, November 20, that we learn that this radar candidate for Standard Block III of the Sino-Pakistani fighter JF-17 has in fact already entered its flight test phase.

The journalists had the opportunity to attend one of the tests that took place on November 14, when the KLJ-7A, installed on a test bench flying Y-7 , was tested on its ability to detect multiple fast moving targets over 100 km, stability of the follow-up, as well as the simulation of arms fire. Two J-7 fighters assigned to the China Flight Test Establishment (CFTE) also participated in the test to serve as a target.

The fact that these tests now take place at the CFTE also means that the Chinese on-board radar is on the final stretch before its final validation.

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The two J-7s serving as targets in the KLJ-7A radar test (Image; CCTV-2)

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Flying Test Bench, Registered 712, for KLJ-7A Radar Flight Test (Image; CCTV-2)

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KLJ-7A Radar Test Screen (Image; CCTV-2)

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The AESA KLJ-7A radar installed under the CFTE Y-7 radome (Image; CCTV-2)

Except for the details already mentioned last year in our file "
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", namely that it is an AESA radar with more than 1,000 transmitters and receivers ( T / R), with at least 11 operating modes and a range of 170 km for targets of 5 m² SER, and able to track 15 different targets and engage 4 simultaneously, we finally could see what the KLJ-7A antennas face, which had been protected and therefore hidden during its exhibition in Zhuhai in November 2016.

Despite the quality of the images in the television report, it is assumed that the antennas are of the "Notch" type installed in a brick architecture, unlike the "Patch" or "Slot" type that has already been seen on some PESA embedded radars. and Chinese AESA. This shape generates a greater beam width and also a better gain.

Although it is not T-R modules installed in 3D tile as is the case for the AESA radar J-20hunter , but for a product dedicated to export must know how to adapt to the market and to its customers.

We also learn that the radar can be adapted to most on-board cooling systems, whether it is a system cooled in air or in liquid. This will reduce the cost of replacement on existing devices by preserving some components already installed on board.

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Competitor of the KLJ-7A, the Italian AESA radar VIXEN 1000E

It is still unclear whether the KLJ-7A will be chosen by the Pakistan Air Force to equip the JF-17 Block III currently under development at the 611 Chengdu Institute in China, but it will face a significant competitor in its category which is the VIXEN 1000E , designated by the Italian Selex ES for the Swedish hunter Saab Gripen NG / E.

We should therefore relive another Sino-Italian competition as was the case between the Grifo S-7 mechanical radar and the Chinese equivalent KLJ-7 V2 at the time for the JF-17 Block I.

To be continued.

Henrik K
 
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Hendrik_2000

Lieutenant General
Here is Martian comparison of different radar T/R module number
China's KLJ-7A AESA radar has 1,000 transmit/receive modules (TRM). This means it is equivalent to the F-16 Block 60 AESA radar in the number of transmit/receive modules.

PihSOKv.jpg

China's Nanjing Research Institute of Electronics Technology (NRIET) KLJ-7A AESA radar with 1,000 transmit/receive modules.

L6RuJvL.png
 

Franklin

Captain
I am not so familiar with JF 17 Block III upgrade, I got this article from Quwa
Seem like the block III upgrade is very extensive. And I don't know the wisdom of souped up basically a cheap and affordable fighter into some kind of super fighter, Is HMD necessary? I think it is luxury but time will tell

HMD is not a luxury. Its a key piece of technology in dogfighting. You are going to get gunned down easily without it. I'm surprised that a HMD system is not part of the block II upgrade or even part of the original block I. In China even some of the newer J-7's have this technology.

What makes the JF-17 affordable for Pakistan is the fact that 58% of the plane is build in the country itself. That means that those resources won't flow out of the country. And the political and economic reality for Pakistan today is that if they want a 4+ gen fighter the JF-17 block III is the only realistic option for now.
 

vincent

Grumpy Old Man
Staff member
Moderator - World Affairs
HMD is not a luxury. Its a key piece of technology in dogfighting. You are going to get gunned down easily without it. I'm surprised that a HMD system is not part of the block II upgrade or even part of the original block I. In China even some of the newer J-7's have this technology.

Are you confusing HMD with HUD?
 
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