JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
The JF-17 will not be exclusive to the PAF, so again, the comparison of its capabilities needs to be made to its peers. And according to your reasoning, why should I limit comparing the JF-17 to only 4th generation fighters when it could potentially go up against 5th generation fighters like the PAK FA???

The PAF looks like the only serious operator of the JF-17.

And yes, if/when PAK-FA goes into service in India, then it would make sense to compare JF-17 against PAK-FA.

Otherwise it's just wasted intellectual energy on unlikely scenarios, whilst ignoring what matters in real-life.
 

AndrewS

Brigadier
Registered Member
Actually I just remembered PAF operates both F-16 and JF-17.

So from a procurement perspective, it does make sense for the PAF to compare capabilities, cost, sustainability etc etc
 

Zahid

Junior Member
Perhaps you should read what he clearly wrote, again. He straight up made a comparison between JF-17, Gripen and F-16. These are correct and appropriate comparisons. But why did he compare the JF-17 to these similar fighters when he can instead compare the JF-17 to much bigger fighters like the article did? The answer is obvious to the average person, but apparently not to some people.

Look, if you want to say that on the battlefield nobody cares whether one or the other is 70 tons of compound/DU armor with a 120mm smoothbore gun and the other is 35 tons of rolled steel armor with a 35mm gun, then yes, you are right. Nobody cares. One will probably annihilate the other and that's the end of the story. One sure does suck pretty badly compared to the other. :rolleyes:

If it hurts so badly to read comparisons, then I suggest you do not read them. I found nothing in the article or any of the posts to suggest mal-intent. You are the only one going on about how and why and where JF-17 should or should not be compared. At the end of the day it is just your opinion, and I would not take it seriously after seeing that you are hell-bent on proving a non-existent point.

I have seen many comparisons over the years and it is quite pointless to get worked up about them just because you think a comparison should not be made. Feel free to get to the nitty gritty of this vs. that on an appropriate thread, and plenty of people shall indulge you. But do not go around haranguing others about why a comparison should not be made, especially when nothing counter-factual was said.
 

Asif Ijaz

Just Hatched
Registered Member
Mastan Khan is not Ex-PAF... he works in the auto industry, is a civilian, born in Pakistan and living happily in USA.
PAF top brass was and is still run by humans and thus prone to mistake. They messed up big time with the french avionics package but then that's history and thus should be left buried.
 

Zahid

Junior Member
Him being ex-PAF is commonly acknowledged at PDF and PakDef at least. Sometimes he does share anecdotes that confirm this impression. That is all I am going to say, since we are already OT.
 

MastanKhan

Junior Member
Hi,

I am not ex paf---.

Those who are trying to bash me need to remember or need to be told one more time---JF17 was designed for a complete French EW suite and fire control radar---which did not happen at the final moment due to reasons known to many---if that would have happened---this aircraft would have been as or more advanced than the Gripen C/D and going on the same pace of development and aesa equipped JF17 by now would have been positioned in between the BLK52's and the BLK60.

If the current Gripen NG can claim to be superior than anything else other than the F22 and F35---what was stopping the JF17 with the French EW package to not be as potent or more potent with current upgrades and updates.

The JF 17 is a complete technical copy of the Gripen---paf tested the gripen for over or around three years and put it thru all the flight parameters of testing and analysis that it could---so what was stopping the paf with the help of the chinese to not have a similar aircraft.

"
Pakistan negotiated with British and Italian defence firms regarding avionics and radars for the JF-17 development. Radar options include the Italian Galileo Avionica's Grifo S7,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
the French Thomson-CSF's RC400 (a variant of the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
),
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
and the British company SELEX Galileo's Vixen 500E
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
(AESA) radar.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
In 2010, the PAF had reportedly selected
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
to integrate French-built avionics and weapons systems over rival bids from Astrac, Finmeccanica and a
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
-
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
joint venture. Fifty JF-17s were to be upgraded and an optional fifty from 2013 onwards, at a cost of up to US$1.36 billion. The RC-400 radar,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
AAMs, and several air-to-surface weapons are believed to be in the contract. The PAF also held talks with South Africa for the supply of Denel A-darter AAMs.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


In April 2010, after eighteen months of negotiations, the deal was reportedly suspended; reports cited French concerns about Pakistan's financial situation, the protection of sensitive French technology, and lobbying by the Indian government, which operates many French-built aircraft.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
France wanted the PAF to purchase several
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
fighters from the
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, which would overlap with the upgraded JF-17.
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
In July 2010, the PAF's Chief of Air Staff,
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
, said these reports were false. He said, "I have had discussions with French Government officials who have assured me that this is not the position of their government". Suleman also speculated that "someone was trying to cause mischief—to put pressure on France not to supply the avionics we want".
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!
"
Please, Log in or Register to view URLs content!


So---now---if the JF17 had received the original batch of french EW suite---what was it that suite not have that would have made it inferior to the Gripen C/D or Gripen NG other than the aesa/irst other sensors---which the JF17 would have had after a 5 years service as an upgrade---.

The superiority of the Gripen is on its EW suite---now if the JF17 had an advanced suite before the Gripen---then why would it be inferior...on what basis
 

dingyibvs

Junior Member
In soccer, the value of a striker is based on how good he is compared to other strikers. The value of a striker to a particular team, however, is dependent also on what defenses he'll face in his league and what supporting cast he'll be playing with. Adding a world class striker to a team already flush with strikers playing in a league that has no good defense, for example, would be a waste of money.

Similarly, you guys are talking about two different things. Iron man, and presumably the writer of that article, are discussing JF-17 as a fighter, while most of the rest of you are discussing JF-17 as a fighter for the PAF. How the JF-17 fares as a part of the PAF really only matters to Pakistanis and Indians, it's not very important for Iron Man or the author of that article, who are probably more interested in the export prospects of the aircraft.
 

MastanKhan

Junior Member
Hi,

Unless after the two seater pops up---maybe two or three more countries in middle east / africa / old russian republics place an order---it would suddenly be a different story of who is facing what.
 

Iron Man

Major
Registered Member
In soccer, the value of a striker is based on how good he is compared to other strikers. The value of a striker to a particular team, however, is dependent also on what defenses he'll face in his league and what supporting cast he'll be playing with. Adding a world class striker to a team already flush with strikers playing in a league that has no good defense, for example, would be a waste of money.

Similarly, you guys are talking about two different things. Iron man, and presumably the writer of that article, are discussing JF-17 as a fighter, while most of the rest of you are discussing JF-17 as a fighter for the PAF. How the JF-17 fares as a part of the PAF really only matters to Pakistanis and Indians, it's not very important for Iron Man or the author of that article, who are probably more interested in the export prospects of the aircraft.
You have the essence of the distinction, though I believe some people are not sharp enough to recognize it. /shocking :rolleyes:

The reason I keep making references to tanks vs IFV's is that this comparison is quite analogous to comparisons of heavyweight vs lightweight fighters. If you went on a full point-by-point, armor thickness vs armor thickness, gun vs gun comparison, you would wonder why in the hell any nation even produces IFVs in the first place. But they do, and for good reasons that do NOT have to do with their relative weakness vs tanks. Similarly with lightweight fighters, despite the fact that they are generally inferior to heavyweight fighters by many measures, have their place in any air force. Now here comes the author the latter half of whose article could basically be summed up as "the JF-17 sucks compared to all these big fighters". Well, duh, Captain Obvious. And if someone wants to claim that potential PAF opponents need to be compared to the JF-17, that's fine, just answer me this question: then why in the world did this author compare the JF-17 to the Su-35 and Typhoon??? Did India secretly just change their mind about the Su-35? Is the Eurofighter going to fly over all the way from Europe to wage war on the JF-17? :rolleyes:
 
Top