JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[Deino]

It is not inconceivable ej200 and empty JF-17 airframes can both be delivered to a third country for integration by that third country.

In theory YES, but do You think CAC will let this "unspecified" country let do all the integration work, testing and even more certification without any deeper look onto this new powerplant (if that ever can be done in that country).

Therefore, in theory maybe YES, but I see this as very, very, very unlikely ... and that's whta I meant with "the chance is nealy Zero !"

Deino

 

[chuck731]

In theory YES, but do You think CAC will let this "unspecified" country let do all the integration work, testing and even more certification without any deeper look onto this new powerplant (if that ever can be done in that country).

Therefore, in theory maybe YES, but I see this as very, very, very unlikely ... and that's whta I meant with "the chance is nealy Zero !"

Deino

Well, if CAC stood to make a profit selling bare airframe kits, then it would behoove it to let the customer do the integration without it self having closer look at the power plant if 1) the customer is capable, and 2) looking deeper into power plant would have been a deal killer. Since FC-17 is neither state of the art nor in service with Chinese Airforce, I suspect the Chinese would have little objection even to the customer bringing in a third party, such as a European or American aircraft company, to help with integration for the customer if that is what is required to consummate the deal.

I suspect FC-17 airframe has the advantage of both being reasonably up to date, and is yet still basic enough for a customer with a modest amount of prior experience to use as a basis for some domestic development, that a substantial part of of potential export market lie in that direction. If that is the case, then CAC can seal many more deals if it was willing to supply just the bare airframes kits plus the necessary airframe design documentation and let local developers and integrators do the rest.

It would be like selling partial mirage iii airframe kits to Israel or South Africa.

 

[Deino]

That's all fine and I can closely follw Your arguments, but - and that's the simple reason - all countries which in come in mind fitting this description You gave will not be a customer for the EJ200 simply due to political reasons. At least i have no idea, which countries would be able to get the EJ200 and also would be interested in the FC-1/JF-17.

Deino

 

[chuck731]

That's all fine and I can closely follw Your arguments, but - and that's the simple reason - all countries which in come in mind fitting this description You gave will not be a customer for the EJ200 simply due to political reasons. At least i have no idea, which countries would be able to get the EJ200 and also would be interested in the FC-1/JF-17.

Deino

Argentina, Brazil?

 

[Deino]

Argentina, Brazil?

Argentina is just trying to purchase surplus Israeli Kfir ... and I'm not sure if Breat Britain will sell them the EJ200 .... and Brazil has just ordered (decided to order) the Saab Gripen E/F.

Again don't get me wrong and I don't want to discredit the FC-1/JF-17 as a fine aircraft, the will to sell even plain aircrafts to any country by CAC and Kamra, the capability of certain countries to integrate the engine and so on ... IMO it is simply the combination of all factors, which make this highly unlikely.

Deino

 

[i.e.]

What about F404 variants?

its actually pretty close to RD93 in term of flow rate and dimensions.

intake wise the most important thing is flow rate,

usually when you design a intake, it would be designed to tolerate a wide range of reasonable flowrate, both for off nominal conditions, margins, and for furture growth.

engine mounts would be an issue but it would not be an insolvable issue.

flight test could be done at karma


anyways the biggest issue is US Government and its obtruse export control attitudes.

 

[Lion]

What about F404 variants?

its actually pretty close to RD93 in term of flow rate and dimensions.

intake wise the most important thing is flow rate,

usually when you design a intake, it would be designed to tolerate a wide range of reasonable flowrate, both for off nominal conditions, margins, and for furture growth.

engine mounts would be an issue but it would not be an insolvable issue.

flight test could be done at karma


anyways the biggest issue is US Government and its obtruse export control attitudes.

Pakistan has not demonstrated they can incoporate another engine into their own existing aircraft and ensure the aircraft will still fly.

When PAF requested US honeywell engine to be installed on their K-8. The intergration,testing, trial flight and everything were done in China. US deemed the trainer engine in no harm to co share China on tech and lifted the restriction and export the engine to China.

Swapping a new engine onto an airframe is not that easy. Extensive design,study ,trial test are needed to ensure the new engine can be accepted by the airframe and works well. I believe only a few countries with substantial facilities are able this task.

This means F404 engine intergrated on JF-17 can only be done in China which chances are as good as zero.

 

[Munir]

Pakistan has not demonstrated they can incoporate another engine into their own existing aircraft and ensure the aircraft will still fly.

When PAF requested US honeywell engine to be installed on their K-8. The intergration,testing, trial flight and everything were done in China. US deemed the trainer engine in no harm to co share China on tech and lifted the restriction and export the engine to China.

Swapping a new engine onto an airframe is not that easy. Extensive design,study ,trial test are needed to ensure the new engine can be accepted by the airframe and works well. I believe only a few countries with substantial facilities are able this task.

This means F404 engine intergrated on JF-17 can only be done in China which chances are as good as zero.

Every part of a high performance jet is specialized work... And assuming that it cannot be done is a personal statement but based on what? JF17 was build with the philosophy that you can plug and play almost every part. That goes certainly for the engine. And it is not you buy a engine and just shuffle it in and hope for the best... Well, India did buy US engine for the LCA. They hardly can achieve anything but got a US engine installed. Going on your logic India is super duper.

 

[simonov]

Just wanna ask block II, beside get the new IFR, is it get new radar and more payload capabilty compare to the block I? is it get a new radar too? thx

 

[Lion]

Every part of a high performance jet is specialized work... And assuming that it cannot be done is a personal statement but based on what? JF17 was build with the philosophy that you can plug and play almost every part. That goes certainly for the engine. And it is not you buy a engine and just shuffle it in and hope for the best... Well, India did buy US engine for the LCA. They hardly can achieve anything but got a US engine installed. Going on your logic India is super duper.

Which means india has better aviation facilities than pakistan. Aircraft is not as simple as plug and play. Extensive wind tunnel test are needed and substantial aviation facilities require to to ensure any foreign engine are intergrated properly onto the aircraft.

So far, all you have mention for pakistan is assumption. Until pakistan has proven they can intergrate a new engine on another airframe. I will hold reserve of capabilities of pakistan for integration by themselves.