JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[EDIATH]

To me a simpel question. China has the labour, the production facilities and is shortest to have it produced on a central location. You just do not want the airbus hectic to transport parts all over Pakistan and China. Might be possible that certain western or non chinese parts to be added in Pakistan but as you said... They are busy to produce as fast as possible the PAF JF17's. Will get FC20. Are getting upgrading F16's. Are getting or operationalizing Erieye/ZDK03. And looking at the number of people working in that industry they are already doing amazing job. If you ask me... China is the place where it was made and where it will be produced for export. You might get some parts from Pakistan but financially that would be a little unwise.

I presumed as much & agree with you about the cost saving part as well. The main reason I raised the issue is CAC is about to mass produce J10B for PLAAF after the plane's 2-3 years of test flights, not to mention the priority on JXX project. For the past years CAC managed to produce a dozen JF-17 for PAF meantime concentrating on J10A production for PLAAF, which was feasible due to a separate production line was set up in Pakistan to follow up PAF's ongoing orders. It seems CAC seriously needs to boost the capacity for other customers if all future orders must be fullfiled in China, not an easy feat to achieve considering the technological complexity these days (the only aviation firm to mass produce more than one type of fighter jets in the world?).

But of course we have to wait for the size of potential orders being revealed before further deliberations on this matter. :coffee:

 

[plawolf]

Well remember that one of the main selling points of the JF17 over, say the J10, is the level to ToT that will be allowed.

Many of the countries that could potentially go for the JF17 would possibly be looking at local production as a means of boosting their own aircraft industries.

If someone ordered a few dozen JF17s, then CAC's existing capabilities as well as the production line being set up in Pakistan should be more than able to handle the extra demand.

If we are talking about triple digit orders that might start straining CAC's existing capabilities, its pretty safe to say that such an order would not only justify setting up local production, but that the customer would probably insist on it as part of the deal.

Lets remember that the JXX is only in prototype stage at the moment. It will be at least 5 years before they are in any position to start serial production at the earliest, realistically, probably it will be longer still. And even then it will only be low volume pre-production runs for the first few years as they do trails and finalize the version.

With this in mind, we can pretty much rule out JXX for the time being, so if this is a new production facility, we are looking at either a sign that the PLAAF is looking to significantly boost J10 production (possibly as a result of the WS10A being ready, or the J10B having completed tests, or both), or that the PLAAF is going to keep its word on its JF17 order (again, perhaps as a result of the domestic engine hurdle having been crossed) or that CAC is expecting significant foreign orders for the JF17, J10 or both.

 

[EDIATH]

JXX construction wouldn't take too much floor space because of the relatively small quantity, yet it's practically a "hand-made" aircraft which may require extensive usage of human resource. Setting up overseas JF-17 production lines, especially training local workers, is also labour intensive and time consuming. Hopefully CAC can cope with multiple projects going ahead in terms of high-tech labour force.

And I lean towards the opinion JF-17 would sell in large quantities just by looking at its $20m price tag, SAAB's Gripen will face great challenge in this one.

 

[Munir]

I think that we will see certain split is Chinese export. The J10B will be a serious competitor in the high end market for relative cheap price. The JF17 will be outstanding for developing or underdeveloped nations or those that need to scrap expensive planes. These two would do well together as the high low mix is China is willing to sell. With J11 and 5th gen in the building I see no reason why. Some could call me Iraci information minister but I have to respect that cause frankly I do not have a single evidence that I am correct on any assumption. Just a risk management remark. Besides that the Iraci information minister did a great job... And I doubt that the opposite site delivered only truth...

 

[EDIATH]

I think that we will see certain split is Chinese export. The J10B will be a serious competitor in the high end market for relative cheap price. The JF17 will be outstanding for developing or underdeveloped nations or those that need to scrap expensive planes. These two would do well together as the high low mix is China is willing to sell. With J11 and 5th gen in the building I see no reason why. Some could call me Iraci information minister but I have to respect that cause frankly I do not have a single evidence that I am correct on any assumption. Just a risk management remark. Besides that the Iraci information minister did a great job... And I doubt that the opposite site delivered only truth...

I'm not sure about this hi-lo combo theory about J10B & JF-17 other than in PAF's case. J10B is on par with F-16 block60 and not necessarily cheaper, besides it's too early to speculate about the potential for export before PLAAF equips a sizable fleet of them, being the sole user of J10 series and all that. On the other hand, JF-17 is meant to replace many customers' existing MiG-21/23, F4/5 etc. fleets en masse, with the potential of both high-tech upgrades similar to Gripen NG and even lower unit price by economy of scale, it's entirely up to customers to choose which version suits them best.

So basically we may see another Gripen in JF-17 within the next few years, which aims to satisfy customers with various defense budget and needs, CAC might be able to offer the market a "hi-lo combo" with JF-17 series alone.

 

[Dizasta1]

To me the underlying questions regarding the JF-17 Thunders are:

1. The status of WS-13 Engine and will they be intended to power the JF-17 Thunders?
2. Would the KLJ-7 Radar be produced by Pakistan be on the basis of ToT?
3. Has the SD-10 AMRAAM been clear for operational service with the JF-17 Thunders?

A small comment with regards to the comment by the PAF pilot (don't mean to stir anything here). I believe that the people of Pakistan and the military personnel of Pakistan have both a tremendous amount of respect and regard for the Chinese people, govt and military. The people/military of Pakistan will not ever forget how China came through in our darkest hour, when we were fighting for our very survival in both 1965 and 1971.

In purest of intentions, I believe that both China and Pakistan strive for excellence in not only military development but also the betterment of the people of China and Pakistan. This is why, emphasis on the development, capability and achievement of both China and Pakistan is stressed. I can say on behalf of all Pakistanis, that we have a sense of admiration as we witness China surge to the heights of prosperity.

May this friendship and alliance foster and grow for a long time to come!

 

[andyhugfan]

To me the underlying questions regarding the JF-17 Thunders are:

1. The status of WS-13 Engine and will they be intended to power the JF-17 Thunders?
2. Would the KLJ-7 Radar be produced by Pakistan be on the basis of ToT?
3. Has the SD-10 AMRAAM been clear for operational service with the JF-17 Thunders?

A small comment with regards to the comment by the PAF pilot (don't mean to stir anything here). I believe that the people of Pakistan and the military personnel of Pakistan have both a tremendous amount of respect and regard for the Chinese people, govt and military. The people/military of Pakistan will not ever forget how China came through in our darkest hour, when we were fighting for our very survival in both 1965 and 1971.

In purest of intentions, I believe that both China and Pakistan strive for excellence in not only military development but also the betterment of the people of China and Pakistan. This is why, emphasis on the development, capability and achievement of both China and Pakistan is stressed. I can say on behalf of all Pakistanis, that we have a sense of admiration as we witness China surge to the heights of prosperity.

May this friendship and alliance foster and grow for a long time to come!

X2


and about the SD-10, i think the paf already has a few of them to equip the first planes.

 

[mean_bird]

To me the underlying questions regarding the JF-17 Thunders are:

1. The status of WS-13 Engine and will they be intended to power the JF-17 Thunders?
2. Would the KLJ-7 Radar be produced by Pakistan be on the basis of ToT?
3. Has the SD-10 AMRAAM been clear for operational service with the JF-17 Thunders?

1. WS-13 are definitely intended to power the JF-17. That, however, will depend on how soon they can be certified for mass production and how good they end up being.

In my opinion it will take a while before you start seeing WS-13 on production models of JF-17. Its risky business to pre-maturely install an engine that has yet to prove itself on a single engined aircraft....unless if something goes horribly wrong with respect to relationships with Russia or the RD-93 engine itself.

Also it depends on the stage of development/testing of WS-13 right now. I don't expect them untill probably after the initial 150 planes for PAF are built though if things go very well, we might see them from plane 101 onwards but less likely.

2. Yes.

But ToT is a relative term. There might be (rather likely would be) parts that will come from China while others manufactured by Pakistan under ToT. There are also some components in it that will be locally designed/adapted/improved though at this moment I do not know which ones.

3. An improved SD-10 (SD10b?) has been offered whose initial results were very satisfying. I honestly do not know at which stage they are right now but integration/testing have been taking place for some time now. I do not think they are operation right now though.

A small comment with regards to the comment by the PAF pilot (don't mean to stir anything here). I believe that the people of Pakistan and the military personnel of Pakistan have both a tremendous amount of respect and regard for the Chinese people, govt and military. The people/military of Pakistan will not ever forget how China came through in our darkest hour, when we were fighting for our very survival in both 1965 and 1971.

Not always a good idea to directly translate casual/informal comments from one language to another. What might be considered normal and acceptable might end up looking quite offensive in the other language, particularly when the context isn't understood.

 

[Dizasta1]

^^ I do understand the last bit, what you meant. Thanks for the replies everyone! Informative indeed! Although with regards to the KLJ-7 Radar, there would be certain limitations, range alterations that are usually allowed with ToT. I wonder if that would be the case b/w China & Pakistan over the KLJ-7 Radars? The only reason why this would be important is because of the need to conceal the detection range of the radar. As there would be foreign countries which would be interested in buying the fighter. We wouldn't want the fighter to fall into wrong hands and its capabilities known, now would we!?!

 

[Chaminuka]

The FC-1 was designed for export and the radar the packaged with it for export is the KLJ-7 and the specifications you see of the radar are for export. If the PLAAF inducts the FC-1, they are likely to have their own avionics and they will not be the one they have been giving out details to the world.