JF-17/FC-1 Fighter Aircraft thread

[siegecrossbow]

Actually another factors that many have forgotten or ignored is the pilots that flew these aircraft. There is nothing on these pilots... I believe that like China or many other countries, the pilots in Pakistan are also classified into different classes.

Which roughly means that those flying the JF-17 (being newer fighters) might be say Class A (or equivalent) pilots while those in the older F-16s might be Class B.

It would be interesting if those pilots in the JF-17 actually piloted the F-16 and test against the JF-17 fighters piloted by the those pilots that piloted the F-16s and if the result is still the same, then we can say that the JF-17 is a better plane than older F-16.

Haven't considered this until now... Well Pakistani pilots have shot down MIG-21s using J-6s before in dogfights so it is entirely possible that the skill of the pilot was a part of the equation. Since Pakistan funded the FC-1 project they might also want some publicity for the fighter...

 

[Munir]

Haven't considered this until now... Well Pakistani pilots have shot down MIG-21s using J-6s before in dogfights so it is entirely possible that the skill of the pilot was a part of the equation. Since Pakistan funded the FC-1 project they might also want some publicity for the fighter...

Zooming into pilots the Pakistani pilots are different if compared to many other pilots. It has Pakistani background with fighting against overwhelming (quality, quantity, no depth) with zero assistance (different compared with Israel which is not only funded but supported in everything from information to latest weapons). It is do or die and nothing more. Add to that the planes which are very much from basic to average (F6/F7/Mirage3/Mirage5/A5/F16A) and the pilots have to show their quality before being graduated to a better plane. Getting into Mirage 3/5 or F16A might be nothing in average western airforce at this moment... But in Pakistan (with 170 million people) it means that you are far above the average. The pilots have a western (UK/US) oriented training but an heavy pilotcentric mind. It is comparable with Israel where the pilot makes the move whatever ground control says. That is extremely different from the Russian, Chinese or Indian style. It is even very different compared with the USA style where netcentric and teamwork is far more important then anything else. Pilots or humans are equal but it does make a lot of impact how they are selected, trained and promoted. It is very complex to compare nations but there are grades and as far I know the Pakistani pilots have been judged by several high ranking figures as very good. It does not mean that others are bad... I think new gerations of pilots in China and India are getting improved very fast... I read that Israeli pilots are the best in the world. Surey against Syrian and Egyptions but I would like to see how they perform against real opponent and not unarmed women and children in occupied territories.

 

[Lion]

Actually another factors that many have forgotten or ignored is the pilots that flew these aircraft. There is nothing on these pilots... I believe that like China or many other countries, the pilots in Pakistan are also classified into different classes.

Which roughly means that those flying the JF-17 (being newer fighters) might be say Class A (or equivalent) pilots while those in the older F-16s might be Class B.

It would be interesting if those pilots in the JF-17 actually piloted the F-16 and test against the JF-17 fighters piloted by the those pilots that piloted the F-16s and if the result is still the same, then we can say that the JF-17 is a better plane than older F-16.

I will not discard your probability. But the top brass people who truthly wanted to see the real capabilities of their new top definitely will arrange a real fight between 2 equally good ace pilot for a real fight.

And also hard facts like turn rate, acceleration, responsive of the aircraft are undeniable. Definitely FC-1 is better, if not PAF will not just induct for the sake of it and plus this is intended for export market. You can cheat this time round but sooner or later test pilot of potential buyer from other countries start flying this bird and find out all what you claim is a lie. This will be very bad and a stupid move of marketing strategy.

I don't think PAF and China will resort to this kind of tricks and lie abt this for long term export market product...

 

[siegecrossbow]

Zooming into pilots the Pakistani pilots are different if compared to many other pilots. It has Pakistani background with fighting against overwhelming (quality, quantity, no depth) with zero assistance (different compared with Israel which is not only funded but supported in everything from information to latest weapons). It is do or die and nothing more. Add to that the planes which are very much from basic to average (F6/F7/Mirage3/Mirage5/A5/F16A) and the pilots have to show their quality before being graduated to a better plane. Getting into Mirage 3/5 or F16A might be nothing in average western airforce at this moment... But in Pakistan (with 170 million people) it means that you are far above the average. The pilots have a western (UK/US) oriented training but an heavy pilotcentric mind. It is comparable with Israel where the pilot makes the move whatever ground control says. That is extremely different from the Russian, Chinese or Indian style. It is even very different compared with the USA style where netcentric and teamwork is far more important then anything else. Pilots or humans are equal but it does make a lot of impact how they are selected, trained and promoted. It is very complex to compare nations but there are grades and as far I know the Pakistani pilots have been judged by several high ranking figures as very good. It does not mean that others are bad... I think new gerations of pilots in China and India are getting improved very fast... I read that Israeli pilots are the best in the world. Surey against Syrian and Egyptions but I would like to see how they perform against real opponent and not unarmed women and children in occupied territories.

I entirely agree that Pakistani pilots are some of the best in the world, having taken on Indian, Soviet, and even Israeli pilots in past conflict and come out on top. This, however, doesn't mean that there are different grades in the Pakistani airforce. Surely there must be Pakistani aces who stand out even amongst other Pakistani pilots.

As for what Lion said once again pilot capability is an important part of fighter performance. I think we can agree that the MIG-29 was a pretty good fighter but they were still shot down like flies when confronted by the superiorly trained U.S./NATO air force. If the Pakistani exported the plane to, let's say, some developing nation with poor fighter training and their planes get shot down in confrontation with another nation. This doesn't necessarily mean that the plane is below standard.

 

[flyboy2008]

Until Pakistan goes to real war, I think it's difficult to judge the quality of it's pilots. Can the "superior" dog fighting skills of Pakistani pilots overcome the superior weapons of it's enemies? If Indian and Pakistan went to war, can Pakistan defend itself against MKIs using only JF17s? The MKI is obviously a superior fighter. It will see the JF17 first and shoot first. I think Pakistani pilots probably are world class, but that may not be enough.

Has China and Pakistan ever conducted air drills before? I think Chinese pilots should test themselves against Pakistani. Say...J11B vs F16A...who'd win?

 

[Adios Amigo]

Hi,
Talking of grades and pilot skills in P.A.F, it is important to note that, All the Pilots on the Thunders are ex-F-16 pilots, and therefore are the very best with loads of flying hours and experience.Thus Thunders vs Vipers in P.A.F, in terms of pilot skills simply means best against the best.


Regards!

 

[Lion]

Until Pakistan goes to real war, I think it's difficult to judge the quality of it's pilots. Can the "superior" dog fighting skills of Pakistani pilots overcome the superior weapons of it's enemies? If Indian and Pakistan went to war, can Pakistan defend itself against MKIs using only JF17s? The MKI is obviously a superior fighter. It will see the JF17 first and shoot first. I think Pakistani pilots probably are world class, but that may not be enough.

Is not so easy of just on radar, see and shoot.. On yr radar and trying to lookout for yr enemies in some situation is looking for death. It just like on yr torch in a cave looking for enemy. You yrself become a big target. AWAC, jammer, ground support all comes in India/Pakistan scenario..

Plus, Chinese owns R-77 missiles used by MKI too. If it really such wonder missiles. China will not discard it and go for their own PL-12 which is SD-10 also used by JF-17.

 

[Adios Amigo]

Until Pakistan goes to real war, I think it's difficult to judge the quality of it's pilots. Can the "superior" dog fighting skills of Pakistani pilots overcome the superior weapons of it's enemies? If Indian and Pakistan went to war, can Pakistan defend itself against MKIs using only JF17s? The MKI is obviously a superior fighter. It will see the JF17 first and shoot first. I think Pakistani pilots probably are world class, but that may not be enough.

Has China and Pakistan ever conducted air drills before? I think Chinese pilots should test themselves against Pakistani. Say...J11B vs F16A...who'd win?

Hi,
This is a concern that pops out from time to time from different corners. The issue seams a genuine concern,when one weapon is compared to another and where often A is regarded better then B. However there is a serious glitch in this theory, where it compares only some and ignore others. The modern warfare is heavily rigged by multiple variables working in coordination, which makes it very complex.

MKIs alone against Thunders, definitely enjoy an upper hand advantage, but when it comes to sub-continent war theater, that advantage is negated by AWACs, GRS, heavily guarded airspace by Modern SAMs and other important variables. Remember, the role of MKIs against Thunders would be that of an aggressor, given the above support factors to Thunders on Home Ground, would an MKI risk a misadventure???

Apart from that we all know that MKI is huge plane with a very big RCS, where as in comparison the thunders are small birds,incorporating already a lot of stealthy features and its real RCS is still unknown and believed to be much lower then that of an MKI. Though MKI have a bigger and more Powerful Radar, doesn't guarantee it to pick the thunders first and the reverse might be true.

Although the general impression is that thunders are work horse for P.A.F and MKIs and other superiority fighters of I.A.F would be tackled by F-16s and FC-20s, but I strongly believe the thunders can hold its grounds against MKIs with the support factors as i already mentioned.

Another aspect to ponder upon is who would have advantage in the WVR arena which is very much plausible given the close proximity of the two nations ?? given the MKIs TVC or the agility of the thunders??

 

[plawolf]

Lets be a little realistic here. In a real war scenario, the IAF enjoys big advantage in terms of both the quality and quantity of the planes they have compared tothe PAF. Everyone, including the PAF recognises and accepts this fact. The main aim of the PAF has not been about achieving air superiority over the IAF for at least the last decade. The PAF's aim is to be able to inflict enough hurt on the IAF to make it cost prohibabtive for the indians to seek a conflict.

One on one, the MKI is obviously the superior overall plane, and enjoys many advantages the JF17 simply could not hope to ever match, such as longer range, greater payroal, bigger and more powerful radar etc. However, that is not to say it is superior to the JF17 in every regard. Through the two in a dogfight with both equiped with HMS cued missiles and the result could be anyone's guess. Even in the MKI's prefered bvr field, the JF17 may not be a total walkover on account of the big difference in RCS of the two, as well as real world limiting factors such as awacs, gci and sams etc, which may force the MKI to engage the JF17 head on even if it detected the JF17 first. Since the detection range of the radars for both planes are far greater than missile ranges, the results on the contest may depend more on missile performance and ecm than radar power.

And of course, this is all in terms of one on one engagement. But how mny JF17s can you buy for the price of a single MKI?

Its an extremely complex issue, and i think we are already getting way off topic talking it this far, so lets try and stear the discussion somewhat on topic shall we?

 

[Munir]

Let us count the number of planes that are 500 km near the border... For the rest I honestly think you are biassed.

Lets be a little realistic here. In a real war scenario, the IAF enjoys big advantage in terms of both the quality and quantity of the planes they have compared tothe PAF. Everyone, including the PAF recognises and accepts this fact. The main aim of the PAF has not been about achieving air superiority over the IAF for at least the last decade. The PAF's aim is to be able to inflict enough hurt on the IAF to make it cost prohibabtive for the indians to seek a conflict.

One on one, the MKI is obviously the superior overall plane, and enjoys many advantages the JF17 simply could not hope to ever match, such as longer range, greater payroal, bigger and more powerful radar etc. However, that is not to say it is superior to the JF17 in every regard. Through the two in a dogfight with both equiped with HMS cued missiles and the result could be anyone's guess. Even in the MKI's prefered bvr field, the JF17 may not be a total walkover on account of the big difference in RCS of the two, as well as real world limiting factors such as awacs, gci and sams etc, which may force the MKI to engage the JF17 head on even if it detected the JF17 first. Since the detection range of the radars for both planes are far greater than missile ranges, the results on the contest may depend more on missile performance and ecm than radar power.

And of course, this is all in terms of one on one engagement. But how mny JF17s can you buy for the price of a single MKI?

Its an extremely complex issue, and i think we are already getting way off topic talking it this far, so lets try and stear the discussion somewhat on topic shall we?