Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

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Air Force Brat

Brigadier
Super Moderator
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Where a naval vessel is considered to be OPSEC. If they need to fight it out in a court, that information will only be revealed in private. Very rarely are ship's movement's declassified, and usually it is well after the fact (maybe even a few decades afterwords).

Exactly, while some bumpin an rubbin is just like Nascar, the incident with the J-7 and the P-3 is an example of how quickly a little fun and games can get ugly, there's really no excuse in stupid, but everybody gets up close and personal, just like nascar, it will get ugly when folks start "tradin paint", LOL, I'm not into Nascar, but I almost signed this BillyMagg, my S&W forum avatar. Brat

Oh yes, and I always strap on my Colt Guvment, and put on my WWII GI helmet when postin on Sino Defense, while I chew on an old stogie, LOL Brat course it did occur to me that everybody knows where the poor old Guardian is, I just made myself mad all over again, did I say stooopidity? oh yeah, forget that, this conversation never took place. BRAT
 

MwRYum

Major
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Unlike Germany, Japan did not have it's political deck of name cards washed properly after WWII, and many of the right-wingers today were probably descendants of the right-wingers back then. It makes sense then why they would want to white wash history and maybe even seeks return of what they think would be theirs if Japan had won. Political business is probably more family-dynastic in Japan than in China, despite it claiming to be democratic.

Under this atmosphere it may not be possible to make the Japanese government to seriously think about what they did in WWII and make amends, as it would imply illegitimacy of many of the current people in power and office. This I think will be the death knot that cannot be side-stepped in Sino-Japanese issues. And I don't honestly think there is a proper solution without doing something big and drastic.

If you look at the current Japanese Cabinet and see the line-up, things won't be getting any better, as it pack to the brim with revisionists and right-winger (just shy of ultra-right, mostly).

So any chance of proper negotiation and resolution? Not after a shooting war and a 3-digit death toll I'm afraid...unless the US finally smell the burning cordite from the lit fuze, rein in Abe and his gang hard, and have all parties finally sit down for a good and proper talk.

But being a pessimist that I am, that seems even more unlikely.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Abe: China stirs up rows to build support at home

japan times / washington post


China has a “deeply ingrained” need to spar with Japan and other Asian neighbors over territory, because the ruling Communist Party uses the disputes to maintain strong domestic support, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said in an interview.

Clashes with neighbors, notably Japan, play to popular opinion, Abe said, given a Chinese education system that emphasizes patriotism and “anti-Japanese sentiment.”

Abe’s theory on the entrenched motivation behind China’s recent naval aggression helps explain why he has spent more effort trying to counter the Chinese than make peace with them: He thinks the fierce dispute with China over the Japan-held Senkaku Islands in the East China Sea isn’t going away anytime soon.

Abe spoke about China in what aides described as unusually detailed terms, laying out challenges that Chinese leaders might face if other parts of Asia, unnerved by Beijing’s maritime expansionism, decide to reduce trade and other economic ties. China’s government would be hurt by such moves, Abe said, because without economic growth, it “will not be able to control the 1.3 billion people . . . under the one-party rule.”

Abe also laid out his plans for deterrence, which include boosting military spending and strengthening ties with Thailand, Vietnam, Indonesia and other nations that share concerns about Beijing. Abe, who is to meet Friday with President Barack Obama in Washington, said the U.S. presence in Asia is “critical” to deter China from taking territory controlled by other countries.

His comments came in an interview Saturday with The Washington Post, which The Post was granted on condition that the article not be published until Abe was departing for Washington.

In recent years, China has played an increasingly boisterous role in the South China Sea, claiming a massive sphere of territory that includes some of the world’s most trafficked shipping lanes and overlaps with claims of a half-dozen other countries. For Japan, the dispute with China focuses on the remote Senkakus in the East China Sea, islets China calls the Diaoyu. Tensions heated up in September after the central government purchased three of the islets after previously renting them, thereby nationalizing the whole chain.

“What is important first and foremost,” Abe said, “is to make (China) realize that they would not be able to change the rules or take away somebody’s territorial water or territory by coercion or intimidation.”

Abe’s assessment of China sounds like a version of the one that experts in Beijing give of Japan, which they say has shifted to the right on foreign policy and security issues in a bid to recover clout and pride lost during two decades of economic stagnation. Abe’s criticism of Chinese education is also notable because, during his first stint as prime minister six years ago, he revised a law to encourage a more patriotic curriculum in Japan’s classrooms.

Abe became prime minister for a second time in December, after making a string of far-right campaign pledges to revise the pacifist Constitution and loosen certain restrictions on the armed forces. He also promised to be tougher on China than the previous government of the moderate Democratic Party of Japan.

But two months into his term, Abe looks more like a pragmatist than a strident nationalist, focusing mainly on a new, and so far successful, economic policy to weaken the yen and spur inflation. His latest popularity rating is 71 percent, according to the Yomiuri newspaper, a stunning mark in a nation that has cycled through six consecutive one-year leaders.

“I have succeeded already in changing the general mood and atmosphere that was prevalent in Japan,” Abe said.

The question is whether Abe will change course and begin pushing for his controversial rightwing hobbyhorses after the July Upper House election, which could help his Liberal Democratic Party build an overwhelming majority and leave Abe emboldened.

One concern is that Abe may try to water down earlier government apologies for atrocities committed by Japan during the war. Abe, in the interview, said he would someday like to make a “future-oriented” statement aimed at Japan’s neighbors, but he did not elaborate on what its message would be.

Beijing has responded to Japan’s nationalization of the Senkakus by sending surveillance ships and aircraft into Japanese territory, drawing Japan into a risky showdown in which the neighbors chase each other around the waters and airspace around the uninhabited rocky outcroppings. Any armed conflict could draw in the U.S., which is treaty-bound to protect Japan.

While historical animosities are at the root of Japan’s territorial dispute with China, the maritime conflict is relatively new. During the interview, Abe portrayed China’s actions as part of a 35-year shift that began when the Communist Party opened its once-controlled economy. China’s government has since had to abandon the hope of nationwide economic equality — “one of its pillars of legitimacy,” Abe said — forcing it to create “some different pillars,” including rapid economic growth and patriotism.

“What is unfortunate, however,” Abe added, “is that in the case of China, teaching patriotism (is equivalent to) teaching anti-Japanese sentiment. In other words, their education policy of teaching patriotism has become even more pronounced as they started the reform and opening policy.”

Abe said China’s tactics at sea are yielding “strong support” domestically. Those tactics, some analysts say, also could prove financially lucrative if China gains control of shipping lanes and access to rich fishing territory, and extracts hydrocarbon reserves.

But Abe warned China’s sparring with its neighbors could backfire, potentially undermining trade partnerships and causing skittishness among foreign investors.

“Such behavior is going to have an effect on their economic activity at the end of the day,” he said, “because it will lead to losing the confidence of the international community, which will result in less investments in China. I believe it is fully possible to have China (change its) policy once they gain that recognition.”
 

Equation

Lieutenant General
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

“What is important first and foremost,” Abe said, “is to make (China) realize that they would not be able to change the rules or take away somebody’s territorial water or territory by coercion or intimidation.”

Don't he mean getting off of lands and territories that don't belong to them in the first place? Those are China sovereignty pure and simple no matter who made up the rules at the time when China didn't have the strength to voice against it. Now that China can, all of sudden the Xenophobia starting wet their pants.
 

joshuatree

Captain
Re: Abe: China stirs up rows to build support at home

japan times / washington post


China has a “deeply ingrained” need to spar with Japan and other Asian neighbors over territory, because the ruling Communist Party uses the disputes to maintain strong domestic support, Prime Minister Shinzo Abe said in an interview.

....


As opposed to Japan, where she spars with all her surrounding neighbors over territory? :eek:
 

Geographer

Junior Member
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

The same thing would apply to Hawaii's illegal annexation by the US. The descendents of the Queen of Hawaii would have a difficult time pressing their (legitimate) case against the US because of the presence of so many people there who would probably be opposed to Hawaii leaving the Union and reestablishing a monarchy.
Exactly! International bodies including the UN and the Hague give greater weight to the wishes of the people living on territory rather than the historical legal context. Which is why, if China or Japan settles people on the islands and keeps them there for at least one generation so there are some babies born on the islands, then that will outweigh whatever legal arguments the other claimant can muster. Same thing for the Paracel and Spratly Islands.

I still don't think Japan would go to war if China put civilians on the islands. I think Japan is a paper tiger, even with Abe Shinzo as PM. Their pacificist mentality is still strong. If it was a very weak country like the Philippines, then maybe Japan would venture to attack them. But I do not think Japan would open fire on Chinese naval vessels or civilians on the islands.
 

LesAdieux

Junior Member
Re: Abe: China stirs up rows to build support at home

Japan Times + Washington Post is all you need to know that it is a garbage biased post.

most japanese are delusional about their economic and military strength. they think their military are better armed, better trained, can easily defeat China in any conflict; economically, they think they are far more important to China than China to them, their investment is crucial for China, if they quit, chinese economy will be in tatter. Abe even claimed that more than 10 million chinese jobs rely on japanese investment.

the japanese has received a brutal reality check on their economic strength and importance very quickly. after the dispute started, China has ruthlessly used the trade leverage against Japan, and the drop of export to china is the main driver that sent japan into its latest recession. and the chinese economy is doing great, the only people who are feeling the pain in china are those car dealers who sell japanese brand.
 

Mysterre

Banned Idiot
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

I still don't think Japan would go to war if China put civilians on the islands. I think Japan is a paper tiger, even with Abe Shinzo as PM. Their pacificist mentality is still strong. If it was a very weak country like the Philippines, then maybe Japan would venture to attack them. But I do not think Japan would open fire on Chinese naval vessels or civilians on the islands.
Japan would not fire on Chinese civilians on the islands. They would simply arrest, detain and deport them. The only way Chinese civilians could stay on those islands is if the Chinese military is there to back them up. In that case Japan WILL fire on the Chinese military, and call on the US, and the US will fire on the Chinese military. Wishing something won't happen isn't going to make it not happen.
 

A.Man

Major
Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Jeff, This Article For You To Read

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Japan and U.S. Ignored Chinese Signals and History, Blundering into the Senkaku/Diaoyu Crisis

Former students of Asian politics and international relations of a certain age (my age, or a bit older), would in college or graduate school have heard of, if not carefully read, China Crosses the Yalu: The Decision to Enter the Korean War, by Allen S. Whiting (1960). This was a seminal study of formal or–mainly–informal signals sent by China in 1950 warning with increasing clarity and vehemence the officially U.N. (but overwhelmingly U.S.) forces under command of Douglas MacArthur, then beating back North Korea invaders and advancing up the Korea peninsula, that China was prepared to and would intervene on behalf of North Korea if its territory or vital interests were threatened.

In the event, on October 25,1950, 25 days after U.N. forces had crossed the 38th parallel, 200,000 Chinese People’s Liberation Army (redesignated by Mao Zedong the People’s Volunteer Army) soldiers, having secretly crossed the Yalu River on October 19, attacked U.N. forces, beginning an engagement that would vastly increase casualties on both sides, but especially for the PLA. Whiting’s book sought to discern at what point China’s in many cases subtle and indirect warnings might have been heeded or responded so that intervention might have been avoided.

I have been reminded of China Crosses the Yalu as I have worked through the new book on the Senkaku/Diaoyu island crisis by Yabuki Susumu (矢吹晋), professor emeritus of Yokohama City University, one of Japan’s most eminent China scholars. The book (written in Japanese) is entitled:「尖閣問題の核心 」(The Core of the Senkaku Issue), and bears a subtitle:「日中関係はどうなる」 (What is to Become of Japan-China Relations). I believe that the book is the fairest and most objective, as well as the most thorough, exposition of the positions of both Japan and China, and–critically–the U.S., on the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands dispute.

At the risk of oversimplifying, I think I can summarize Professor Yabuki’s analysis and conclusions as follows:
1.The Japanese position on the Senkaku/Diaoyu issue is indefensible on several counts, including most fundamentally Japan’s unconditional acceptance of the terms of the Potsdam Declaration (which required the return of all territories “stolen” from China).
2.The Meiji government’s annexation of the Ryuku Islands (theretofore an autonomous kingdom) in January 1885, within which the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands were identified, followed three months later by the Qing Dynasty’s surrender of Taiwan and the Pescadores to Japan in the Treaty of Shimonoseki (ending the Sino-Japanese War) are both mooted by the terms of Potsdam. The islands were and are clearly part of Taiwan, which in addition has the most legitimate claim to continuous use/occupation.
3.The Japanese position that Senkaku/Diaoyu is part of Japanese territory because it was awarded to Japan by the U.S. in the Okinawa Reversion agreement of 1971 is similarly contrary to fact. The U.S. awarded to Japan only administrative authority over the islands, not sovereignty. Sovereignty was specifically not transferred. The U.S. continued to maintain was undetermined between the three claimants and would only be determined through discussion and agreement. (As I noted in the last post, the Obama administration–in a monumental blunder–effectively changed this policy by failing to object to and stop Japanese “nationalization.”)
4.Japanese policy–and particularly public misunderstanding–has been based on the false assertion, uttered by then foreign minister Fukuda Takeo in testimony to the Upper House of Diet on December15, 1971 that Okinawa Reversion had accomplished the restoration of Japanese sovereignty over the Senkaku/Diaoyu islands. Whether Fukuda misunderstood the issue, or intended to deliberately deceive the country through this testimony is unclear.
5.The Chinese position on handling the territorial issue was, before Japanese “nationalization,” grounded on the 1972 agreement between Prime Minister Tanaka Kakue-Premier Zhou Enlai, when the terms of Japan-China diplomatic relations were determined, to “shelve” the issue–i.e., to avoid any acts that sought to enforce one side’s claim to sovereignty.
6.Yabuki cites his own research and authoritative third party sources to charge that the Japanese Ministry of Finance removed from official transcripts of the Tanaka-Zhou discussions that agreement to “shelve” the issue, allowing future Japanese governments to fraudulently claim that the issue was not discussed and that China asserted a claim over the islands.
7.Under the circumstances above, the decision of the Noda government to “nationalize” the islands was a grave provocation, a fundamental change in the status quo, tantamount from the Chinese point of view to aggression and forceful annexation of Chinese territory. An equivalently forceful Chinese response to “balance” the level of its sovereign claim was inevitable.

What has reminded me of Whiting’s study are the many signals sent by China since the beginning of the current crisis (which might be traced back to the fishing boat incidence in 2010). In December 2011 I posted on the humiliation meted out to PM Noda during a short, seemingly purposeless–and certainly fruitless–trip made to Beijing. Already, Japan-China relations had cooled to near freezing.

Professor Yabuki chronicles the many signals of trouble as Chinese concern over the direction of Japanese policy grew. These included the refusal of Hu Jintao in February in to meet a top level delegation of seven of Japan organizations’ heads in Beijing to commemorate the 40th anniversary of restoration of diplomatic relations. The last minute cancellations of a scheduled visit to Hu Deping, son of Japan’s last “sympathizer” in the Beijing leadership, Hu Yaobang, and a visit of China’s most senior uniformed military officer, Guo Boxiong, in May.

What concerns Yabuki most is that these signals, among many others, were hardly noticed or appreciated in Japan. Yet, they were leading to what became almost a complete breakdown in communications with China. The almost farcical, but deeply tragic, denouement of this breakdown was the “16 minute standing dialogue” between Hu Jintao and Noda held on the sidelines of the APEC conference in Vladivostok on September 9 at which each side delivered its ultimatum.

The Noda Cabinet decided the next day to implement nationalization and the following day paid the money and signed documentation. It is now very hard to believe that anyone expected Japan’s decision to have the effect of de-escalating the crisis. If anyone did they were making the same mistakes as Truman and MacArthur in 1950.
 
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