Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Radar

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

kroko said:

it all boils down to how disciplined/trained are PLAN sailors/commanders. It was only recently that they have possesion of oceanic warships. I wouldnt be surprised if a emotional captain would do just that. Remember that chinese pilot who killed himself flying too close to that orion plane? Having equipment is one thing, but you need training/discipline to use it properly.

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All possibilities but at the same time, I think one of the supposed FCR incidents took place with a Jiangwei, those have been around for quite some time. And I'm sure the Hainan Incident made the Chinese military re-evaluate their methods of engagement as well, how time flies, it's over a decade now.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

montyp165 said:

At a minimum Japan has historically been known to fabricate incidents..

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And more recently than the 1930s, China has lied about things too. Remember how SARS was definitely foreign and certainly nothing to do with China?

Let's just stick to actual, recent facts.

PanAsian said:

I am sure that pilot knew how to handle his J-8II fine and wasn't planning on dying. It was simply a game of chicken with the accompanying risks which went too far regardless of whose fault it might have been.

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Few people wish to commit suicide, although I don't know that the pilot wasn't competent. Perhaps what kroko meant was that the PLAN doesn't have the experience to deal with situations like this. Or maybe it was a game of chicken, and the Chinese captain hoped to scare the Japanese ship into withdrawing.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Mr T said:

And more recently than the 1930s, China has lied about things too. Remember how SARS was definitely foreign and certainly nothing to do with China?

Let's just stick to actual, recent facts.

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Chinese government never made categorical denials in any of the communications regarding SARS, and it had little to do with foreign policy actions either, making such claims both erroneous and irrelevant. When anything involves political jockying between nations spindoctoring goes into hyperdrive, and the Japanese in particular have always been more active in such (with even their own special terms for it).

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

kroko said:

it all boils down to how disciplined/trained are PLAN sailors/commanders. It was only recently that they have possesion of oceanic warships. I wouldnt be surprised if a emotional captain would do just that. Remember that chinese pilot who killed himself flying too close to that orion plane? Having equipment is one thing, but you need training/discipline to use it properly.

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Yet more baseless and loaded speculation. China has had 'oceanic warships for decades', it is only recently that they got decent ones. But all that is totally missing the point, since there is no question that the PLAN has been using fire control radars for decades and knows full well the importance of keeping those frequences a secret from would be enemies.

Using the lack of blue water operational experience to try and suggest that the PLAN are somehow not disciplined/trained is comparing apples to oranges and seems more like a deliberate misdirect rather than an honest intellectual mix up.

Mentioning the downed J8 is yet more evidence that you are just trolling, as if that was the first time in the history of flight that an intercepting fighter collided with their intended mark.

If you have something intelligent to share, I am all ears, but please leave the petty and mindless mud slinging to the third rate forums where such transparent ploys might actually have a chance of fooling someone.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

Well unless you have served with PLAN or privy to inside information you are no more knowledgeable than the rest of us on how efficient their crew work actually is. Therefore your opinion is no more credible than '"Kroko's" They actually got one of their frigates stuck on a sand bar not so long ago. They were lucky it wasn't rocks otherwise they might have sunk their own ship.

One things for sure though as Popeye or some other member pointed out in the stage managed photo shoot etc of aircraft landing on the carrier, there were sailors standing in what would be no go areas on US carriers.... chiefly the lifts.... so how good is their training, often made more complicated by their shorter enlistment time when compared to other navies?

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

^ I would say you're right, but chalking things up to human error is typically not a very pleasant solution.

On the other hand, IIRC there was this USN ship that also ran into some shoal or something other not very long ago;

In any case, standing in what would be "no-go zones" on the great imperial carriers isn't really a sign of lack of training either. Indeed, I've always wondered if precautions taken by other organizations is truly helpful or if they're unnecessary complications stemming from traditions/circumstances.

For example, empirically speaking how vital is tying up your shoe laces completely up your ankle? Do people actually trip over them selves significantly more otherwise (perhaps not a good example if this is true)?

I imagine a lot of it is sort of like printing "warning, hot!!" signs on coffee cups: rate of reduction of burns attributed to the warning might be rather dubious...


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TL;DR version

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

PikeCowboy said:

^

In any case, standing in what would be "no-go zones" on the great imperial carriers isn't really a sign of lack of training either. Indeed, I've always wondered if precautions taken by other organizations is truly helpful or if they're unnecessary complications stemming from traditions/circumstances.

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Safety comes to mind. Standing with your back to the lift and lost with your own thoughts one might not notice the lift being lowered, above the noise of jet engines when deciding to taking a step backwards etc.
Futhermore, expanding on my earlier remark on the short time the enlisted man serves with his shipmates may impede the smoothness on how the ship is run.


meanwhile we know the reasons for the Chinese frigate getting grounded, what of the American ship?

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Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

bladerunner said:

meanwhile we know the reasons for the Chinese frigate getting grounded, what of the American ship?

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And they would somehow be different reasons? I don't even get your question here. Ships usually ground because they didn't know the shoal was there. Do you mean to suggest the American grounding was intentional? You mean to suggest the American ship did in fact know it was there and grounded it on purpose? You obviously imply (by even just asking the question) that the American grounding smells sweeter than the Chinese grounding. Please, enlighten us how this can be.

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

plawolf said:

Indeed, one of the first publicised instances where Flankers got the better of J10s before the J11B, when J10s were really dominating, was when an attacking formation sacrificed all but one of their planes by flying them straight into the intercepting J10s and prompty all out shot down, but that distracted and occupied the J10s long enough that a single MKK coming in from a different vector managed to bomb their target and win the Flankers the engagement.

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Well in that case that was a very stupid tactic, and if you do not realise the importance of AWACS in aerial warfare then I will not even begin to explain, you do realise that ground radar works over land and not over the sea

Re: Japanese Defence Minister: Helicopter & DDG "locked on" by Chinese Frigates' Ra

asif iqbal said:

ground radar works over land and not over the sea

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Nothing to do with issue you are currently debating, but I was under the impression that ground based "Over the Horizon Radar" monitors shipping as well as air traffic.